I'm in the market to purchase a new sea kayak. While doing my research, i came across two types to stearing systems, a skeg and a rudder. I've used rudders before, but never a skeg. I guess my question is, what is the purpose of a skeg, are they really nessesary if you already have a rudder? I also read some place, that a skeg has attendancy to malfunction, allowing water to enter your boat is this true?
I guess my next question would be, if you were going to buy a sea kayak and wanted to load your boat up and go camping with it. What type of boat would you buy and which company or companys would you go with?
I've been looking at boats from eddyline and own two kayaks made by Necky. I know that there are tons of companys out there that make kayaks. Im just not really sure where to look, other than at your local kayak stores. I guess i would like to start taking to people and see which companys are good and which ones are not. Seeing is that i have NO experience in this, I was hoping that you, the Kayakers community could help me out.

thanks!

You didn't say whether you are looking for plastic, or composite. My advice is to take a little trip down to Tacoma and check out the NC Kayaks. They are simply the best built kayaks I have ever seen and you don't have to worry about skegs, or rudders. NC advises that neither are required on their boats.

I prefer the British style kayaks for their looks and maneuverabilty. Most of them use a skeg and by the way it isn't for steering, it is used to counter the natural tendency for the boat to turn into the wind, or current. That is also the primary purpose of a rudder.

As I indicated, my first inquiry would be to NC Kayaks (they have a nice Website) and then I would be comparing Current Designs, Valley, Wilderness, Eddyline, Seaward, and on and on. In the end, you will most likely have to pick from those that are available to you, so that a proper demo can be arranged. By all means, try as many boats on as you can.

My choice for a sea kayak is a CD Sirocco. This is a magnificent boat that has more capabilities than I will ever master, but I hope to someday add an NC Expedition to my stable.

Have fun looking and it might be instuctive to go to Paddling net and read a lot of reviews. However, don't be either persuaded, or disuaded by what you read. You will have to find a boat that fits you and your needs and that's the fun of it.

Seems like this is one of those topics that could be debated forever. I, personally, have a Wilderness Systems Tempest 170 that has a skeg. I like it, but try to NOT depend on the skeg entirely. It is handy when there is a stiff cross wind, but even when there is I only use it part of the time. I don't want to get so dependent on it and not know how to handle a situation where something happens and it jams and will not deploy. I have tried a few kayaks with rudders and do not care for them. Somewhat for the same reason, not wanting to get dependent on it. Also, I don't feel like I have a solid "footing" for more powerful paddling.

That all said - try out what you can. Skeg / Rudder / Neither and see what you like. The best time to try them is in the wind when you think you need the rudder or skeg. I wish I could have tried more different boats, but there aren't many available around here. But, I am happy with the one I have and hope that I can wear it out.

Not much experience with a skeg.
Seems to me that a rudder has more flexibility in how you would use it and in what conditions.

I wouldn't pick a boat because it did, or didn't have a rudder; there are other considerations that are far more important. My thought is that for whatever additional flexibilty that a rudder might afford, the extra cables and controls are likely to cause some problems. As I said before, I prefer the British style and I've never encountered any situation where I would have wanted a rudder. That said, I would not turn away from a boat with a rudder. My sister just bought a very nice boat that came with a rudder--on my recommendation. She thinks the boat is great and by the way, she has yet to use the rudder.

The history of rudders & skegs has several stages. In the 1980's, many designers of hardshell kayaks tried to persuade us that their designs were perfect, and needed neither skegs nor rudders--any handling problems that you encountered with their boats was YOUR FAULT. Rudders were, especially, an abomination in their eyes--always breaking, jamming, interfering with rescues, etc., and preventing people from learning how to paddle. The great embarrassment to these designers was the paddling career of Kiwi sea kayaker Paul Caffyn, who circled New Zealand's forbidding shoreline and tempestuous waters in a skeg-equipped Nordkapp, and then put a rudder on it and circled Australia. He said he never could have completed the trip without the rudder. More rudders began to appear on boats.

The designers then discovered retractable skegs. Here was the answer with which to trump the hated, loathesome rudder. Lots and lots of boats began being made with retractable skegs, and still are. They're great, but a lot of paddlers have found their skegs jamming in their housings, clogged by sand and gravel, or their cables wearing and fraying and breaking. I remember one trip where 3 out of the 6 or 7 paddlers with me jammed their skegs one way or another, and had to hit the beach or otherwise get somebody to help deploy the skeg.

Meanwhile, rudders have also continued to appear on boats, and, as far as my experience goes over 24 years of paddling a ruddered boat and with other ruddered boats, I have only very rarely witnessed a rudder jamming, or failing to deploy--maybe twice? But since in many quarters rudders are still regarded with disdain and loathing, when people ask me if I have a rudder on my boat, I say Oh No; I have a stern-mounted, foot-controlled, variable-azimuth, retractable skeg, and it works just great! Never jams; never fails to deploy.

On a more serious note--Every kayak I've owned or own has been retrofitted by me with both a non-retractable, permanent skeg, usually of solid oak, AND a good rudder. The skegs are just big enough to ensure that the boat will glide in a straight line; the rudder I deploy only during difficult quartering winds and for twisting salt-marsh creeks, overall maybe 10% of my time on the water. My rudders are all controlled by toe pedals mounted to rigid, immovable footrests, or by homemade T-bars that I pivot with my toes while my heels remain anchored firmly againt the base of the T-bar assembly. The effectiveness of this configuration was recently demonstrated (again) when, during a difficult 4-nautical-mile passage into and beam-to measured 20-knot winds and horizon-high chop, I easily maintained my course, while my skilled, experienced companion found himself repeatedly struggling to maintain his position in his rudderless but skeg-equipped craft.

Rudders are or can be, in my opinion, a useful item on many sea kayaks--the key is to rely on them ONLY intermittantly, as essentially variable-attitude skegs to ease long crossings with strong quartering winds, or for negotiating twisty, narrow channels and creeks. Their critics are correct in warning against their being used as a substitute for proper boat-handling skills, and paddlers becoming dependant upon them.

Carl W (Strange Magic)

I guess I'll be fine with my deployable skegs, since I don't ever drag my boats on the beach and I'm not planning a circumnavigation of Australia.

My point 65 north XP has a rudder and a skeg and also paddles very well with neither deployed.In fairly calm water( up to 1.5 mtr swell with wind chop ) you can vary how much skeg you drop down to suit the conditions .In rough water dropping it all the way down steadies the boat and increases stability.But when it gets really rough (over 2mtr swell and strong winds) I use the rudder for better control ,also if you are using a sail the rudder is almost a necessity.As well on most skegs you will notice a small hole on the lower edge for tying a thin piece of cord to so if the skeg sticks ,you paddling partner can reach under and give it a tug to unstick it .But both rudders and skegs do cause drag and the boat paddles a lot faster without them being used.

For almost all paddling that I do, the added drag of skeg and/or rudder is negligible, yet I find the benefits are substantial. Many of the big circumnavigations (Australia, the British Isles, for example) have been accomplished in boats with rudders (Nordkapps).

I'm not arguing with you brother,but I have the best of both worlds,skeg and rudder or neither. Current research showed that having a rudder caused a drag coefficent of 3%,but if you are paddling a boat where you have to do sweep stokes or brace stokes you will be a lot more than 3% inefficent.Using a rudder and a more stable boat allows you to concentrate on paddling technique to achieve speed and efficency of effort.Visit the Epic website and read what Barton and Chuplitschy have to say about it.

Yeah, I have to agree with wavehog; I tend not to overuse my skeg, but when you need it, you need it and it doesn't noticably slow the boat. As I said before, I prefer the deployable skeg over a rudder, but I wouldn't totally rule out a ruddered boat.

I do think some further refining of the skeg slot should be done to reduce drag to an absolute minimum. I haven't had the chance to try a boat with the high aspect (verticle) skeg, but that might be as slick as a skeg can get in regard to minimizing the slot. However, if it isn't as effective as the more common skeg, then it may not be worth it.

Hey,magooch,If you want to see something really interesting ,have a look at the new Lettman kayaks .They have a drop down skeg/rudder. If you only drop it down a bit it's a skeg,if you drop it all the way down it's a totally underslung rudder like o the ocean racing skis and some K1s.Check it out.

Will do, wavehog.

Hey wavehog, I had a look and some of those boats look interesting. That new fangled rudder might catch on if it isn't too spendy and if it doesn't damage easily. I don't think I would like the slot in the stern. I like very sharp, clean ends on a boat.

Then there are the NC Kayaks that require no skeg and no rudder. Check em out; they are the best built and prettiest boats I've ever seen, but they are a handful to turn without putting them right up on their edge. Unless something else comes along, I might just end up with their 19 footer for long distance stuff, but I'll never give up my Sirocco for pure fun.

Nice looking boats,look fast.

I think a rudder is good when your new to the sport but I like the simplicity of a skeg. I like the surf and i'm not good enough yet to go without anything , but that would be the ultimate!

I also have a boat with a rudder and one with a skeg and another without either. They really do handle quite differently...but that rudder sure is nice out in the big waves with the wind blowing one way and then you hit a cross current. One of the previous messages stated that if you do alot of sailing you sure should have a rudder...I concur!!!!!!

As an aside apropos of this. I paddle with my buddy in his feathercraft K2. It has a rudder. It is designed to paddle with a rudder. We found out on a 4 day trip that we left it behind in my van at the takeout. So off we went and we could barely get the boat out of the creek. With a light cross breeze we were working like dogs to stay on course. So, not to say die and loving to solve problems we came up with a fixed skeg from the spare paddle. (tie wraps, baby...don't leave home without them!) Next day I got it up to an adjustable system with cords and adjustments for the sternsman to set the angle.
[image][/image]
Bottom line.... this is a Rolls Royce of boats, but its gotta have the rudder.
(actually this is just a chance to see if I can include a photo in a post and to show how clever I am... I don't get enough validation, I guess).

So, I paddled my new kayak on sunday. I was stretching it out to see how fast it would go. I then dropped the skeg and I could really feel it. I am sure that it will be great when I have a wind, but I will endeavor to paddle without it when I can.

I paddle mostly rivers. If you are going upstream in fast current a rudder will help you duck in and out of eddys. Sometimes in a river if your trying to get someplace quick a rudder may help you cut a better line to shorten the distance and reduce time. With that said I use the rudder very little in a long boat.

I posted a thread regarding the unruly behavior of my P+H CETUS in following seas with 20-35mph winds to our backs, we had 2'-3' wind waves, it should have been a fun day, my paddling partners, all paddling NDK's dusted my ass.
This boat has a lot of rocker and turns on a dime, which is nice!
The skeg however is flimsey at best, good or bad design from P+H?
I've never had a boat with this much rocker, looks like I might have to look at my paddling style, which after thirty years of paddling is second nature to me.
Also the boat is swedeform, any suggestions would be welcome.

Just curious as to how you knew the winds were 20-35 mph.

I could see that coming my old friend.

Cheers

Bill

Bill, I'm the gatekeeper at the Door of Truth when it comes to wind speed reporting! Lousy pay, though.

I always smile when I see a rudder V skeg debate.
There is another here for anyone interested..
http://www.seakayakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=221

My newest boat has neither and that works for me.

Don't complicate things Magooch.......its rudders or skegs!





only kidding mate , its good to throw a curve ball in there to see if there is any more we can get out of a rudder or no rudder debate! Always a fun one.

Timax, I read all the posts in the seakayakforum thread. They reinforce the long-suspected division that exists between paddlers who mostly paddle for distance (explorers) and those who enjoy boat handling--surfing, rolling, bracing--(players). Many paddlers do both, but generally the explorers like rudders, which the wise ones use as variable-azimuth skegs when conditions begin to impede efficient forward travel. Serious rudder-users learn to paddle perfectly well without using the rudder for probably 90% of the time.

Players don't generally need rudders, and find them often a hindrance to their full enjoyment of their boats and their abilities. And our kayaking community has plenty of room for both camps, as well as for feathered/non-feathered; Euro/Greenland; soft chine/hard chine; etc., etc.

Sprayskirts and PFDs are another story, however

Since I got my NC Expedition, which has neither rudder, nor deployable skeg, I now find myself using the skeg on my Sirocco a lot more than I used to. The Expedition has made me realize how much effort I was wasting on corrective paddling. I was always afraid that using the skeg too much would make me too dependant on it. My new philosophy is, the skeg is there, use it any time it makes paddling easier. Why beat yourself up.

I would have to agree with strange magic - being in the explorers camp we have always had rudders though we use them less than 5% of the time we are on the water. We've always considered them a trim tab to be used when more corrective strokes are needed than we find to be fun. If we're playing along a shore the "trim tabs" are always up as they actually impede our ability to turn quickly.

I think if drag was an issue with rudders, we wouldn't see them on K-1's. I am a definite fan of the rudder, and I use it for steering weather I am racing or paddling for fun. As pointed out earlier, long distance paddlers swear by them.

Edit: I should point out I fall into the "explorer" category, and prefer paddling longer distances. My Sunday AM fitness paddle is 36 miles, and when I paddle all day can be up to twice that. I can see how a rudder might not be preferred in surf and rock gardens.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can paddle 72 miles in one day can have two rudders and a skeg if they want to.

Some Point 65 North boats are available with both a skeg and rudder. If that doesn't keep the thing on track, I guess ya might have to resort to some edging.

Wow, I just saw that you gave it a 5/10 on paddling.net. .. you probably have the wrong boat for your "needs"?

I have the tupperware version of your boat, the Scorpio LV, I was in rough waters the other day and found that it was difficult to keep the boat going straight when going with the waves as well, but isn't that what is supposed to happen ? to some degree at least ? Plus that generous bow rocker is probably limiting your overall speed along with LOA. Though I believe swede form can be technically 'faster' provided a few things.

The Skeg is OK, but I would assume that most boats will have issues with the skegs from time to time, the guy who sold me the boat had to replace the line and that seemed to help with deployment and retracting..

I think your review is very partial and biased towards a particular sea condition. 5/10 is entirely unfair, this is one of the many well made 'swiss army knives' of kayaks..

Smollet, I'm intrigued by your Sunday AM paddles of 36 miles, and your all-day trips of 72 miles. In how many hours do you complete the 36 and the 72 mile outings? And what sort of boat & paddle are you using? How often do you make these journeys? Are we talking statute miles or sea (nautical) miles?

I'm sure he means statute miles and I would venture that it takes hime ALLLLLL morning to do that kind of trip. that would take him 6 hours at 6mph (10 min miles)... Still though, this guy is in some SERIOUS good shape.. :-)

I was able to go at 5.98mph average for 8.5 miles the other day and it wasn't TOO hard but I had a 1-2knot ebb.. and I'm a beginner with a 'slow touring' boat..

I'm going to chime in here and wonder if this fastination with all out speed is somewhat out of place with reference to paddling. Yes indeed it is nice to have a fast kayak, but if speed is your real interest, then I have to also wonder how paddling is going to satisfy that lust in the long run.

Let's get honest, guys, there isn't really that much difference between a super fast kayak and a so-so kayak. What?--Maybe one point something mph? If competition is your thing, then go for it, but for just enjoyable paddling, I want a boat that cruises with ease and is comfortable and dry in the rough stuff and won't put me upside down if I get sloppy. Oh, and the boat has to look good.

Magooch. You say,"I want a boat that cruises with ease and is comfortable and dry in the rough stuff and won't put me upside down if I get sloppy. Oh, and the boat has to look good." As a fellow older paddler, these also are my criteria, although my criteria have been met with a very different boat. Top speed is of very little importance to me, but to many others it is a top priority. The younger guys need to have their fun.

Earlier in this thread, in a reply to Timax, I noted a spectrum among kayakers, with Explorers at one end and Players at another. I should have postulated a three-way, triangular grid, with Explorers and Players each at their own corner of the triangle, and Racers occupying the third corner. Racers comprise actual racers and also fitness/workout enthusiasts. These are the intended audience for the various go-fast boats (including surf skis) on the market. A "well-rounded", middle of the road paddler would thus occupy a position toward the center of this triangular grid. I personally am somewhat over toward the Explorer corner. Interesting, though, that Big Trip Explorer paddler Freya Hoffmeister is in a go-fast Epic 18X for the Australia circumnavigation. Did she pick it out? Was it provided free of charge? She and Greg Stamer paddled NDK Explorers for their Iceland circumnavigation. Paul Caffyn always uses ruddered Nordkapps. It may well be that, once you become a powerful, skillful sea kayaker, you find a way to bring out the best in whatever boat you're in.

You make some good points and I agree with a lot of what you are saying but it doesn't infer that any variation is wrong. I'd say a top sea Kayak would have a normal kayak beat by a couple of knots or more and also have the ability to sustain top speeds for much longer. When travelling 16miles or more, you'd like every advantage. The casual paddling speeds would hence be compromised along with handling or stability per se. Though there are fantastic kayaks which will cut through waves better than some of the more traditional boats. Watch the Epic videos on youtube.

I haven't used any of the "fast" boats so I can't yet form an opinion about if they work for me or not, though I think I will be pleased to an extent. Currently, my 16.7 boat will not go much faster than 5.6-6mph seemingly as I've tried to paddle it very hard.

Oh, and I prefer skeg.. :-)

mitch, I wouldn't argue with you one bit about the difference in ultimate speed between "normal kayaks" and a "top sea kayak." Our discrepency is only a matter of definition. I'm saying "so-so" and you're saying "normal." I haven't tested enough boats to be qualified as any kind of expert on the subject, but I have read a lot of reviews on paddling net. and in Sea Kayaker. Outside of a very few very specialized super skinny boats, there isn't a huge difference in cruising speed, or top speed in serious sea kayaks. Like I said, about one point something mph.

I guess you could say that in the world of kayaking, one mph is significant, but only if you're keeping score. The way I keep score is how much I enjoyed my last paddle and whether I did it without hurting myself. I've finally figured out that I'm not Superman and if I try to keep up with power boats, a whole lot of my 66 year old body is going to hurt in a couple of days. My new boat allows me to satisfy my desire for a very nice cruising speed and no sore parts. But I still get a kick out of passing a sailboat from time to time.

Oh, and about paddling hard; I've come to understand that there is paddling hard and paddling efficiently. Efficiently--and I can't realy define that--always seems to do the job better and without the pain-penalty of what I would call, "hard paddling."

Here's maybe a useful chart on kayak speeds/efficiencies: http://www.kayakshops.com/kayak_speed.htm The data is not current to 2009, but it makes for interesting reading. You can click on any listed speed and the boats will rearrange themselves. There was an article by a marine architect in a 2008 issue of SK where he notes that every kayak will have one or more "sweet spots" where one gets the most boat speed for the least effort, and he shows you how to figure this out for your own boat. Like Magooch, I'm in no rush (most of the time) while I'm paddling; I paddle at a speed where I feel I'm gliding smoothly along using a relaxed, unhurried, easy stroke. Makes for a great day on the water.

Very interesting.

I agree with you with most of this, but I would disagree that the speed differences are minor. To me, going say 3-4 miles in an hour to 6-8 is significant ..

Some one once asked me "What's the difference between a kayak that goes 3 mph and a kayak that goes 3.5 mph?"
I replied "the difference is that after 30 minutes the other guy is a quarter mile ahead of you!"
It is my experience that differences that would be trivial in other vehicles are huge in sea kayaks.

I guess we could beat this to death, but my original point was that most sea kayaks are fairly similar in their cruising speeds and that is the range where most people will paddle most of the time. I've come to appreciate seaworthiness, stability, comfort, tracking and efficiency and if all that comes in a package that is capable of a nice turn of speed--then you're talkin.

Yeah and I think it's mental too .. I've seen this with my recent experencies alone...

I rode the strongest part of flood last Saturday morning and made an over 8 mile cruise in about hour - ten. It's taken me as much as 2+ hours to do that same trip under harder conditions..

It is for sure, exhilerating when mother nature gives you a little boost in performance. I love it when the wind and tide team up and get behind me.

Statute miles. 36 miles typically takes me around 8 hrs. Thats just a little over 4mph, so its no speed record there. I do that about once every 4-5 weeks as part of my endurance training.
I will do a 12-20 mile paddle twice every week for more intense training. An all day trip is early AM till dark, depending on what time of year can be 16 hrs. It's not hard to cover some huge distances especially on rivers.
I use a QCC 700x
Sorry I was so late in replying. Wasn't paying attention

Smollet, thanks for your reply. Am I correct in assuming that you do not paddle continuously for either 8 or 16 hours? At 7.5 hours actually paddling time for 36 miles, that gives 4.8 mph--pretty respectable! Am I also correct in assuming that you are working tides both ways on your river outings? Or are you working eddies upstream and running with the current downstream?

I work eddies upstream and ride current downstream. On a full day paddle I will usually stop for lunch, but thats often just two Clif bars and something to drink, and not more than 30 minutes. On the shorter paddles, I usually do not stop. I will stop paddling long enough to eat something usually once an hour, but thats just long enough to put food into my mouth. I actually enjoy grinding away like that more than recreational "sightseeing" type paddling.
Might just be weird

It is a personal thing I feel, as there are many angles which this argument may take. It's better for a beginner or less confidant paddler to have it but not need it, and use it only when necessary.
I however prefer to paddle a narrow, hard chine, deep V, fish form greenland style kayak. I prefer they way the boat handles in rough water, and she responds nicely to bulge steering and turning strokes. This makes me a minority paddler in New Zealand where most paddlers use a rudder. However if I was to try and paddle 40 miles/day like the legendary Kiwi Paul Caffin I would defiantly add a rudder. It is a personal choice! are you a purist who seeks paddling perfection or are you one who wishes to slip away form the city for a few days of bathing in nature using the boat purely as a mode of transport?

You raise another consideration in your post, Jeremy--to what degree a sea kayaker is involved in--experienced in--the activity. In previous posts in this thread, I postulated that there are 3 distinct types of sea kayakers: explorers, players, and racers, and that one's style of kayaking could be plotted on a triangular grid with those 3 categories as "pure" endpoints--but of course any particular sea kayaker can locate him/herself anywhere on the grid, depending on the mix of one's interests. In my own local kayaking group, we have a few pure racers--fitness/speed lovers paddling surf skis or go-fast kayaks (often solo)--many players paddling SOF Inuit boats or their fiberglass equivalents, or surf kayaks, and who spend almost all their time on the water perfecting their braces and rolls (usually very social)--and a few explorers (I am one), who paddle all day using their boats to go places and see things (often solo). But most of our paddlers are more well-rounded and balanced kayakers, enjoying almost equally all 3 of these styles of kayaking.

Your post, though, suggests to me that a further refinement adds another dimension to the triangular grid, one at right angles to the grid itself that would show the degree of experience of and commitment to sea kayaking--from casual/novice where it's too early for a paddler to have figured out what style they prefer--to committed/experienced enough for the paddler to have evolved into being whatever type of paddler that bests suits their interests. I realize that this is not the equivalent of the Theory of Relativity, but I find it's fun to think about sea kayaking styles/tendencies in this manner.

New to the sport I think I would opt for a rudder after renting a Solstice. If I don't want it I pop it up. It did seem to me that a rudder slowed me more than 3%. If I was going 6 mph I would then have to feel a .18 mph loss. Not sure if I could but I did feel something.

When in conditions that cause us to use our rudders I'm guessing the 3% slowing caused by the rudder is more than made up for by not having to make corrective stokes.

It's interesting that most long distance paddlers use boats with rudders. Both round Australia trips were finished with boats that had rudders.

As I've said before for most of us rudder is a misnomer we use it more as a trim tab to keep our boats going straight when in quartering wind and waves. When I want to turn fast my rudder is up as I can turn a much sharper radius turn without it.

1) One advantage of skegs over rudders is foot support. I much prefer having my feet planted firmly on an unmovable surface. If one is doing much edging, a big advantage.

2) One of the big drawbacks of skegs is their getting jammed with pebbles. There is a simply solution to this: put a piece of duct tape over the skeg opening, with a piece of string/thin rope secured to the aft end of the tape. Run the string up to the bungee just forward of the cockpit. After launching from the beach, pull the tape off with the string. I've been doing this for a while, works quite easily. Other than getting jammed by pebbles, skegs should be quite reliable...just don't leave them down when landing or in very shallow water.

3) Sterlings Kayaks has a wonderful advance on skeg designs...they call it a skeel. It sits just behind the paddler, so it tends to stay submerged when on steep waves, and it doesn't inhibit turning much while deployed (unlike a stern-mounted skeg). They also designed the wire in a way which is really kink-proof: the entire length of the wire is always fully supported. If you were to run aground with it deployed, it would just push the wire/control forward, with no kinking.

Can you turn as fast with the rudder up in high winds, say 20+ knots and 2-3 foot chop? I can find that type of water in my local bays. I am just starting and I doubt I can or really know I cannot. I may need more skill.

The key to turning in wind and short steep chop is turn when a the ends of boat are out of the water and the center of the boat is on the crest of wave. The other key is, of course, practice. Keep track of your local wind forecast and find somewhere you will be blown onto a safe shore line to practice. In sea kayaking, "more skill" translates to performing the basic rescues and strokes in ever more challenging conditions.

Rudders are great for long crossings in a cross wind or traveling most efficiently from point A to B but are not that great if sliding around in rock gardens and surf are what you are into

As far as I know Sterling Kayaks make one of the best sea kayaks, its composite and it in USA. Other ones i know are in Europe.

The best is to have both, skeg and rudder. the biggest mistake people make is that they use rudder always and forget that you should learn to rudder you boat with paddle strokes and body. There is more to it but I cut it short.

You shouldnt forget that rudder can stop working or it may hurt someone during rescue, as its construction is sharp.

On waves, rudder may not be effective as it may happen to be in the air on a surf, hence skeg is needed.

Skeg is not so good in strong winds because it is hard to direct boat and lots of energy is used just for that.

I could make the case for no skeg, nor rudder, but I don't want to start that argument. It all depends on the overall design of the boat and to some degree the strength and skill of the paddler. I have found that in some conditions, you had better figure out how to turn the boat no matter what it is equipped with. When the wind gets strong enough, there are times when the strategic use of the paddle and pure brute force comes in handy for turning into the wind. It might not be elegant, but it works for me when nothing else does.

Some ruddered boats it would seem to me would nearly preclude some types of self rescue. It might get a little dicey trying to mount the boat from the stern, even with the rudder deployed. And then there are the integral rudders. It's nice to have choices.

The conversation's age is telling. I participate in a bike aid group, communication pre UTUBE was higher.

I ran thru the skeg/rudder before going Solstice/rudder. Experience includes small boat sailing, I leaned to skeg.

Then I read of trips with skegs ending in disaster when skegs were ripped off from brain fade I shallow water...eg the Vancouver speed circumnavigation.

NO SKEG ! Seriously, who needs the aggravation ?

If you need capacity for turning upwind then try a rockered hull. Long straight hulled Great Lakes cruisers-the Solstice- turn upwind but on a wave crest with skill, lean and strength...and foul weather language. \

Rockers simply turn around the center no language necessary.

Data, I know a lot of very, very experienced paddlers who also can make the case for no skeg and no rudder. You have heard of Pygmy and NC boats--right? I reiterate, all paddlers should learn to manage their boats without the skeg, or the rudder in case those devices are disabled, or when conditions are troublesome enough that they are of little help in turning. I don't think the original kayakers had skegs, or rudders.

Practice is good. Making for home on day’s last crossing against tide and a long fetch wind begs a trim rudder. I watch the GPS CMG/SOG. The GPS sez using the rudder is more fun. I agree.

Question: is a skeg or rudder more drag ? as a device placed under hull or at end of hull.

Practice without rudder (or skeg) is essential as both add unnecessary drag sez the GPS. What 5 mph hull is faster ? One with the device up. Energy expended learning forward ahead speed balance is cumulatively light years less than dragging a rudder along, aesthetically relevant.

Really, if you’re not developing toward this balance, take up rafting.

You are writing a rationale for no skeg or rudder ?

May we read this ?

History in writing, oral history and images all show skegs and rudders were added to all floating craft several days after launch or to the second build after the first craft sank.

For the immovable rudder foot platform….look at the closet hook section in hardware and then glues. Buy hooks or loops. Glue astern platform and within reach with 3M quick cure ( 5 days, tape it in) Marine adhesive. Loop narrow diameter shock cord thru platform, cinch tight around hook.

I don’t turn the Solstice upwind against a small craft warning, I pray. Ruddering helps hold hull steady in glide between strokes just enough to get the barge on the immediate wave crest in a turning position.

If your question is directed to me regarding the case for no skeg, nor rudder--my point was merely to state that some boats do just fine without either. I'm also aware of at least one boat that is virtually impossible to paddle without the rudder in the water if there is a breath of wind, or hint of current. My conclusion is that the total design of the craft and the preferences of the paddler are very much at play.

Datakoll, we, again, reach a point where I cannot figure out what you're saying. What is your argument? also, the discussion isn't about other craft. It's about kayaks.

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Magooch. It's dependent on the design of the boat and the paddlers preferences. For myself, I prefer a skeg and rarely deploy it. i use it most often with quartering winds on crossings so I can perform fewer correction strokes.

I have little to no love for rudders, but that is the way I roll. I teach may students whose boats have rudders. For strokes and boat handling a require that they keep it up and I emphasize that the rudder is an aid to tracking not steering.

'nuff said.

Well, http://www.paddlin.com/rudder_.html

Rudders and skegs imply very strongly a need for rudders and skegs. If we include the paddle as rudder or leeskeg then 'all' craft use skegs/rudders exceptin' specialized craft used or designed TO NOT use r/s for specialized reasons for example perceived aesthetics.

Learning skills toward paddling with great balance, perceptive intelligence, and efficacy is effectively done with interval training. Intervals against the wind often simply given by rudder/skeg control.

Forcing learning without intervals is not aesthetic.

Dependence on rudder skeg exclusive of learning toward is a special case certainly not a foundation for r/s discussion. You see this point, no ?

The shock cord fix works.

I am surprised finding - in a search done before posting here - paddlers expecting less drag from skegs as the skeg intrudes into a less turbulent area than the stern rudder at what may be the most turbulent flow area.

RUDDER UP !

Say what?

indeed...

Magooch and Mark: As I have commented before, I think datakoll's intention is to be perceived, rather than to be understood.

Riding the bus out of town, a winter boy mounted his hiriser bicycle on the rack, got on smug n grinning.’

By chance, I watched him ride. Not me ! 5’ off the ground isnot within my bicycling tolerance levels.

Next time he got on the bus without mounting a cycle. He was cut bashed n bruised.

Probabbly nothing to be with that bicycle.

Carl offers a well thought out analysis. I figured out why the skeg is generally less friction than the rudder even in the less turbulent area. Why because it isn’t turned against the flow to impede for turning or trimming ! DUH

I feel badly about the Jersey paddler but ….? One could say the cyclist ‘assumed’ or ‘affected’ or ‘pretended’ but insult was not the intention. Small intellectual humor.

For my part, I’m involved with basic cutting edge field research from a kayak with animal behavior…apparently from Jersey and the Sea. No assuming allowed.

Carl would be a lucky find for first use buyers. Could be that level analysis would size the buyer for providing use able advice.

When looking for my first kayak, I found bad advice, lies, misrepresentation, threats ! obfuscation, affectation from the tsunami raiders, and subtle ignorance. If I had taken West Coast Advice, I would be miserable with their idea of hull effectiveness.

So in the beginning, my analysis was a go for DOWN RUDDER….!!ZX#$%!!..I forgot to unhook it or that F!!ZX345Q! sea lion’s got his teeth on it.

MY OPINION: all beginners boats should have a rudder and track with just enough edging for allowing practice into a ear in the water turn but not requiring constant balancing activity for staying upright. And a 2 part wetsuit with gloves and booties by law as with scuba regulation.

BTW, I work with hurricane prediction nailing yours within city limits. What you perceive is irrelevant.

I rest my case.

How can anyone not enjoy the great "rudder vs skeg" debate?

Although I have no clue what datakoll was saying, the debate is always entertaining.

SKEG!!!

And then there are those builders who aren't taking any chances and provide both. I don't know if this is because they're not sure of their design, or if they are very sure that in enough wind and, or current, these boats are going to be a handful.

With performance internal combustion engines, two spark plugs in a cylinder was cause for snickering if they had gotten it right off ......

Not really as analogous as two rudders, or two skegs, but who's counting.

Wu approached the reef. Waves rose to 15'. BOOMERS ! Wind screamed from the East. A hard choice - SKEG or RUDDER - life itself at stake.

Writing this never experiencing a skeg I am CONVINCED the answer is skeg until of course you knock it off on a rock.

Is there a fore/aft adjustable skeg ? with variable depth ? on what hull ?

Not analagous ? the reference questions ' is the design flawed '?

A kayak is a kayak but a kayak hull with a skeg center board and sailboat rudder is ?

Wu may say YES YES !

in our next installment.

No skeg on a round bottom Solstice. Ill try out a more exact approach to attack/trim weighing/recording fore aft cargo area loading. Maybe there's a skeglike sweet spot ratio ?