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#5389 - 02/22/13 04:48 PM Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial
Strange_Magic Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 458
Loc: New Jersey
April 2013 issue: I cannot tell a lie--it was me! smile

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#5397 - 02/28/13 07:27 AM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: Strange_Magic]
magooch Offline
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Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 637
Regarding that whole topic of laws mandating that a pfd must be worn while paddling--while I believe the wisdom of wearing a pfd cannot be challenged, I am not in favor of laws that require it.

John Kerry said in America we have a right to be stupid. That might be the only thing I agree with him on, but nevertheless, he's right. There will always be do-gooders and know-it-alls who think they know what is best for everyone. The right to be stupid is often the essence of freedom and liberty.

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#5398 - 02/28/13 09:33 AM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: magooch]
Strange_Magic Offline
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Posts: 458
Loc: New Jersey
Seat belts?

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#5403 - 03/01/13 09:22 AM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: Strange_Magic]
PeterCKM Offline
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Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 13
Loc: San Francisco, CA
I have not made up my mind on PFDs (or seat belts) being mandatory. But I do religiously wear both (not at the same time).

Taking bicycle helmets as an example, doesn't seem so cut and dry:

- bicycle helmets protect a head from some hits to the head, but the vast majority of crashes it does not protect the person from. For example, if a bike is hit by a car, there will be so much trauma to the body that the helmet does nothing. And even if you endo, only if your head hits straight on does it really protect (not much protection from side hits).

- bicycle helmets have been shown to actually attract cars. Cars give less space to people wearing helmets when passing, but more space to women (so maybe we should put wigs over our helmets?): http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=strange-but-true-helmets-attract-cars-to-cyclists

- bicycle helmets scare beginners. If they think the sport is so dangerous that they need to wear a helmet, then they have a second thought about doing it.

The first and third have equivalents in kayaking. PFDs keep someone afloat, but my understanding is that the main cause of death (at least in the cold waters where I paddle) is hypothermia, not drowning (once the cold gets to them and they stop being able to swim, they do drown, but the real cause was the cold). Having a PFD would keep them afloat longer and make it easier to find the body. But maybe we should have required a wet suit rather than PFD - would give both flotation and warmth?

But the number of deaths in kayaking is very small, as compared to the number of people who do it. So does requiring a PFD scare people from taking up the sport? Quite possibly.


Edited by PeterCKM (03/01/13 09:23 AM)

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#5404 - 03/01/13 05:47 PM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: PeterCKM]
Strange_Magic Offline
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Posts: 458
Loc: New Jersey
Peter, thanks for your input. The bicycle helmet article in SA was interesting, but certainly shows that much more tightly conceived and executed experiments/observations need to be done to determine exactly what the real-world consequences of bicycle helmet-wearing are. Regarding whether your points one and three correspond to kayaking is another matter. Your Point One: it's been well-established that it is not hypothermia that is the primary killer in cold-water capsizes; it's Cold Shock, with the companion involuntary Gasp Reflex causing the sudden inhalation of water--the PFD works to somewhat prevent the degree of facial submergence upon capsize that results in the inhalation. The PFD also provides the needed buoyancy to allow the victim time to gain control over their breathing function, and to begin to effect a self-rescue. The phenomenon of someone being plunged into cold water (without a PFD) and sinking immediately like a stone is well documented. I remember well reading a tale of a fit, vigorous fisherman falling suddenly, accidently, from his boat into an icy Canadian lake, and going right to the bottom and coming to rest, stone dead, in 30 feet of crystal-clear water before the horrified eyes of his companions. Their attempts to get to him ended when they found themselves barely able to get back into the boat themselves.

Your Point Three: I cannot get my mind around a scenario whereby seeing somebody wearing a PFD while kayaking would deter someone from taking up the activity. The lakes and reservoirs here in New Jersey that require the wearing of PFDs are choked with happy paddlers in every sort of kayak on your usual nice paddling day. And it's a familiar phenomenon that newcomers to virtually every sort of activity quickly adopt what they perceive as the usual, routine garb and behavior of that activity--you see people out on the lake kayaking, and wearing PFDs as a matter of course, and you do likewise. We are also finding out that off-season, cold-water paddlers here in NJ routinely now wear drysuits--an idea that the sea kayaking industry scoffed at 25 years ago.

But, law or no law, I routinely wear my PFD while boating, my seat belt while driving, and, if I cycled, I'd certainly wear my helmet while out on the road or trail.
















Edited by Strange_Magic (03/02/13 06:22 AM)

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#5406 - 03/05/13 08:25 AM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: Strange_Magic]
PeterCKM Offline
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Registered: 12/09/11
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Loc: San Francisco, CA
Originally Posted By: Strange_Magic
it's been well-established that it is not hypothermia that is the primary killer in cold-water capsizes; it's Cold Shock, with the companion involuntary Gasp Reflex causing the sudden inhalation of water


Do you have any references that show this? My understanding is that cold shock is more prevalent with colder water, and at water temperatures we see here in California (ocean temps vary between 50 and 60) it is not that prevalent.

I did a quick search (including this Sea Kayaker article at http://www.seakayakermag.com/2008/Feb08/cold-shock.htm), and they do say the colder the more it occurs, but can occur (though they make it sound like rarely) at water temps as high as in the 70s.


Edited by PeterCKM (03/05/13 08:27 AM)

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#5407 - 03/05/13 10:54 AM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: PeterCKM]
Strange_Magic Offline
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Loc: New Jersey
Chris Brooks' SK article remains the primary recent source for the effects of cold shock on capsized boaters; Moulton Avery's precedent-shattering article, Cold Shock, in the Spring 1991 issue of SK, began the process of educating the kayaking public about the phenomenon of cold shock, and stems from Avery's own years of research on the physiology of sudden immersion in cold water. Cold shock, like hypothermia, is keyed to water temperature, and varies in its effects on different people, but both Brooks' and Avery's work shows that cold shock and its attendant problems--the gasp reflex, swimming failure, cardiac arrest, etc.--are the primary killers in cold-water capsize events, and that one must survive the cold shock before one can contemplate what to do about the hypothermia that will surely come on afterward. For more info, you might contact Moulton Avery through his National Center for Cold Water Safety: take a look at the Safety--Lessons Learned post further up on this SK Message Board.


Edited by Strange_Magic (03/05/13 05:38 PM)

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#5408 - 03/05/13 03:01 PM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: Strange_Magic]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
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Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Cold shock reaches its maximum intensity between 50F and 60F, so you have ample opportunity to experience it on the West Coast. As a general rule, hypothermia takes 30+ minutes to occur (core temp <95F) even in freezing water. Faster for small, thin bodies, much longer for large, fat ones.
See www.coldwatersafety.org. Lots of info & 19 Case Studies of close calls & fatalities.

Think about where your mouth is relative to the water surface (3-4"). If you become physically incapacitated by cold (helpless & unable to use arms & legs) while floating in the water, the threat you face is drowning. Hypothermia is a tertiary threat. Without thermal protection, you will most likely drown before becomming hypothermic.
Moulton Avery


Edited by ShiverMeTimbers (03/05/13 03:27 PM)

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#5409 - 03/05/13 03:22 PM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: ShiverMeTimbers]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
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Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Roughly nine out of ten fatalities in open water (non-whitewater) paddling are the result of unprotected immersion in cold water. Canoe & kayak fatalities in a recent Coast Guard report constituted roughly one out of every 6 boating deaths in the US (stats from all 13 classes of boats). I haven't been in a serious auto accident in over 35 years, but I always wear my seat belt. Stuff happens, often when you least expect it. Always wear your PFD; just don't make the mistake of thinking that it's the "key to survival" in cold water.
Moulton Avery


Edited by ShiverMeTimbers (03/05/13 03:28 PM)

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#5439 - 03/17/13 09:44 AM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: ShiverMeTimbers]
chad Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Ontario Canada
This is a great discussion. And an important topic to discuss. I have a bit of a background with hypothermia. I am a fire fighter and an Ice/water Rescue Instructor for my Fire Dept. I just want to share I bit of info.

Stages of cold water immersion:

Cold Shock Response - This includes the Gasp reflex but also includes rapid breathing and hyperventilation. Lasts about 1 minute

Cold Incapacitation - Start to loose movement of hands and feet then arms and legs as your body tries to preserve heat and circulation to the body's core. At about 10 minutes you can't help yourself anymore.

Hypothermia - Starts to occur at about 30 minutes. Has 3 stages: Mild - shivering, Moderate - unconsciousness and Severe - cardiac arrest.

I like to teach the 1 - 10 - 1 Principle starting from the time of immersion.

1 minute to get breathing under control.

10 minutes to be able to help yourself.

1 hour to unconsciousness.

That first 10 minutes is crucial to kayakers. Especially ones like myself that paddle alone and on bodies of water with hypothermic potential. A paddler may only have that 10 minutes to help themselves with no one else to rescue them after they become incapacitated (one reason why I always carry a good marine radio).

As far as I am concerned, PFD's are always a must and Thermal Protection is always a must when paddling in conditions where there is the potential for hypothermia. No exceptions. Law or no law.

I also just want to add that in my experience, although I have encountered cold shock, I have never experienced, or even witnessed the Gasp reflex in which water was inhaled. I do know it exists but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the Gasp reflex being a main contributor in cold water immersion fatalities.

One more thing about the bike helmet discussion. Many accidents involving a car and a cyclist occur to low speeds such as when a vehicle makes a turn and collides with a cyclist. A helmet helps to protect the most important part of the human body. The brain. Surprisingly the human body can take some serious punishment and damage and survive but the brain can suffer serious damage from what may appear to be a small and insignificant "hit" or "blow". So it seams prudent to me to wear a helmet and protect your brain.











Edited by chad (03/17/13 09:49 AM)
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#5440 - 03/17/13 11:28 AM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: chad]
chad Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Ontario Canada
I have just read some postings from Moulton Avery dealing with this topic and the 1 - 10 - 1 "gimmick". Moulton makes excellent points that I do agree with. For a more in depth understanding I recommend everyone read that post if they haven't already. His arguments are more insightful to the paddler.

I only use the 1- 10 - 1 Principle as a means for demonstrating a simplistic understanding of the effects of cold water immersion. I am teaching this to persons that would be performing a rescue, already wearing appropriate thermal and safety gear and not persons needing rescue, not wearing thermal protection.

The problem with teaching something like this is that there are so many factors that affect the outcome. No 2 people will experience the effects of cold water immersion the same way. Those same 2 people could be affected differently under the same conditions on a different day. For example I could loose enough motor function of my hands and arms after only 5 minutes in the water and not be able to perform a self rescue. But on a different day under nearly the same conditions I might last 10 minutes. One degree or 2 in water temperature can also have a huge difference in effect. There are so many variables that can alter the outcome.

One big thing that Moulton writes about is testing your gear. I fully agree with this. Don your thermal underwear and put on that dry suit and get in the water. This hands on approach to experiencing the cold water conditions and how your gear will fare against it can enlighten a paddler greatly. A paddler may realize that they have been paddling for years in these conditions without adequate thermal underwear. This should help give the paddler a new found respect for the cold water conditions as well as an appreciation for their protective gear.
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#5442 - 03/17/13 06:25 PM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: chad]
datakoll Offline
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Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 127
Loc: Florida
testing layers of your tech sports clothing equipment for temperature level effexrivemess is interesting. And you bought so get to it. Then in situation 32 you will know comfort from kit 10.

Latest surprise, and a first in the area. is Walmart's cloth weave inside's Ozark bag giving super warmth balance in the range's mid area. My $150 bags are 20-40 degrees off.

A Kokotat semi dry suit with long sleeve poly crew, poly T, poly90/10 cotton, terramar mesh weave, differ by 10-20 degrees for comfort.


Edited by datakoll (03/17/13 06:26 PM)

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#5445 - 03/18/13 04:20 PM Re: Letter of Reply to Chris' Mandatory PFD Editorial [Re: datakoll]
datakoll Offline
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Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 127
Loc: Florida
Bag's a Coleman not the incredible but cooler Ozark.

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