Data, I know a lot of very, very experienced paddlers who also can make the case for no skeg and no rudder. You have heard of Pygmy and NC boats--right? I reiterate, all paddlers should learn to manage their boats without the skeg, or the rudder in case those devices are disabled, or when conditions are troublesome enough that they are of little help in turning. I don't think the original kayakers had skegs, or rudders.

Practice is good. Making for home on day’s last crossing against tide and a long fetch wind begs a trim rudder. I watch the GPS CMG/SOG. The GPS sez using the rudder is more fun. I agree.

Question: is a skeg or rudder more drag ? as a device placed under hull or at end of hull.

Practice without rudder (or skeg) is essential as both add unnecessary drag sez the GPS. What 5 mph hull is faster ? One with the device up. Energy expended learning forward ahead speed balance is cumulatively light years less than dragging a rudder along, aesthetically relevant.

Really, if you’re not developing toward this balance, take up rafting.

You are writing a rationale for no skeg or rudder ?

May we read this ?

History in writing, oral history and images all show skegs and rudders were added to all floating craft several days after launch or to the second build after the first craft sank.

For the immovable rudder foot platform….look at the closet hook section in hardware and then glues. Buy hooks or loops. Glue astern platform and within reach with 3M quick cure ( 5 days, tape it in) Marine adhesive. Loop narrow diameter shock cord thru platform, cinch tight around hook.

I don’t turn the Solstice upwind against a small craft warning, I pray. Ruddering helps hold hull steady in glide between strokes just enough to get the barge on the immediate wave crest in a turning position.

If your question is directed to me regarding the case for no skeg, nor rudder--my point was merely to state that some boats do just fine without either. I'm also aware of at least one boat that is virtually impossible to paddle without the rudder in the water if there is a breath of wind, or hint of current. My conclusion is that the total design of the craft and the preferences of the paddler are very much at play.

Datakoll, we, again, reach a point where I cannot figure out what you're saying. What is your argument? also, the discussion isn't about other craft. It's about kayaks.

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with Magooch. It's dependent on the design of the boat and the paddlers preferences. For myself, I prefer a skeg and rarely deploy it. i use it most often with quartering winds on crossings so I can perform fewer correction strokes.

I have little to no love for rudders, but that is the way I roll. I teach may students whose boats have rudders. For strokes and boat handling a require that they keep it up and I emphasize that the rudder is an aid to tracking not steering.

'nuff said.

Well, http://www.paddlin.com/rudder_.html

Rudders and skegs imply very strongly a need for rudders and skegs. If we include the paddle as rudder or leeskeg then 'all' craft use skegs/rudders exceptin' specialized craft used or designed TO NOT use r/s for specialized reasons for example perceived aesthetics.

Learning skills toward paddling with great balance, perceptive intelligence, and efficacy is effectively done with interval training. Intervals against the wind often simply given by rudder/skeg control.

Forcing learning without intervals is not aesthetic.

Dependence on rudder skeg exclusive of learning toward is a special case certainly not a foundation for r/s discussion. You see this point, no ?

The shock cord fix works.

I am surprised finding - in a search done before posting here - paddlers expecting less drag from skegs as the skeg intrudes into a less turbulent area than the stern rudder at what may be the most turbulent flow area.

RUDDER UP !

Say what?

indeed...

Magooch and Mark: As I have commented before, I think datakoll's intention is to be perceived, rather than to be understood.

Riding the bus out of town, a winter boy mounted his hiriser bicycle on the rack, got on smug n grinning.’

By chance, I watched him ride. Not me ! 5’ off the ground isnot within my bicycling tolerance levels.

Next time he got on the bus without mounting a cycle. He was cut bashed n bruised.

Probabbly nothing to be with that bicycle.

Carl offers a well thought out analysis. I figured out why the skeg is generally less friction than the rudder even in the less turbulent area. Why because it isn’t turned against the flow to impede for turning or trimming ! DUH

I feel badly about the Jersey paddler but ….? One could say the cyclist ‘assumed’ or ‘affected’ or ‘pretended’ but insult was not the intention. Small intellectual humor.

For my part, I’m involved with basic cutting edge field research from a kayak with animal behavior…apparently from Jersey and the Sea. No assuming allowed.

Carl would be a lucky find for first use buyers. Could be that level analysis would size the buyer for providing use able advice.

When looking for my first kayak, I found bad advice, lies, misrepresentation, threats ! obfuscation, affectation from the tsunami raiders, and subtle ignorance. If I had taken West Coast Advice, I would be miserable with their idea of hull effectiveness.

So in the beginning, my analysis was a go for DOWN RUDDER….!!ZX#$%!!..I forgot to unhook it or that F!!ZX345Q! sea lion’s got his teeth on it.

MY OPINION: all beginners boats should have a rudder and track with just enough edging for allowing practice into a ear in the water turn but not requiring constant balancing activity for staying upright. And a 2 part wetsuit with gloves and booties by law as with scuba regulation.

BTW, I work with hurricane prediction nailing yours within city limits. What you perceive is irrelevant.

I rest my case.

How can anyone not enjoy the great "rudder vs skeg" debate?

Although I have no clue what datakoll was saying, the debate is always entertaining.

SKEG!!!

And then there are those builders who aren't taking any chances and provide both. I don't know if this is because they're not sure of their design, or if they are very sure that in enough wind and, or current, these boats are going to be a handful.

With performance internal combustion engines, two spark plugs in a cylinder was cause for snickering if they had gotten it right off ......

Not really as analogous as two rudders, or two skegs, but who's counting.