#1892 - 09/08/09 10:15 PM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: wavehog]
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Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 7
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I think if drag was an issue with rudders, we wouldn't see them on K-1's. I am a definite fan of the rudder, and I use it for steering weather I am racing or paddling for fun. As pointed out earlier, long distance paddlers swear by them.
Edit: I should point out I fall into the "explorer" category, and prefer paddling longer distances. My Sunday AM fitness paddle is 36 miles, and when I paddle all day can be up to twice that. I can see how a rudder might not be preferred in surf and rock gardens.
Edited by smollet (09/08/09 10:24 PM)
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#1893 - 09/09/09 07:09 AM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: smollet]
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Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
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As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can paddle 72 miles in one day can have two rudders and a skeg if they want to.
Some Point 65 North boats are available with both a skeg and rudder. If that doesn't keep the thing on track, I guess ya might have to resort to some edging.
Edited by magooch (09/09/09 07:11 AM)
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#1926 - 09/15/09 11:32 AM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: no1lle1]
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
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I posted a thread regarding the unruly behavior of my P+H CETUS in following seas with 20-35mph winds to our backs, we had 2'-3' wind waves, it should have been a fun day, my paddling partners, all paddling NDK's dusted my ass. This boat has a lot of rocker and turns on a dime, which is nice! The skeg however is flimsey at best, good or bad design from P+H? I've never had a boat with this much rocker, looks like I might have to look at my paddling style, which after thirty years of paddling is second nature to me. Also the boat is swedeform, any suggestions would be welcome. Wow, I just saw that you gave it a 5/10 on paddling.net. .. you probably have the wrong boat for your "needs"? I have the tupperware version of your boat, the Scorpio LV, I was in rough waters the other day and found that it was difficult to keep the boat going straight when going with the waves as well, but isn't that what is supposed to happen ? to some degree at least ? Plus that generous bow rocker is probably limiting your overall speed along with LOA. Though I believe swede form can be technically 'faster' provided a few things. The Skeg is OK, but I would assume that most boats will have issues with the skegs from time to time, the guy who sold me the boat had to replace the line and that seemed to help with deployment and retracting.. I think your review is very partial and biased towards a particular sea condition. 5/10 is entirely unfair, this is one of the many well made 'swiss army knives' of kayaks..
Edited by NYCmitch25 (09/15/09 02:27 PM)
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#1938 - 09/17/09 05:29 PM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: smollet]
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
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Smollet, I'm intrigued by your Sunday AM paddles of 36 miles, and your all-day trips of 72 miles. In how many hours do you complete the 36 and the 72 mile outings? And what sort of boat & paddle are you using? How often do you make these journeys? Are we talking statute miles or sea (nautical) miles?
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#1943 - 09/18/09 08:34 AM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: Strange_Magic]
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
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Smollet, I'm intrigued by your Sunday AM paddles of 36 miles, and your all-day trips of 72 miles. In how many hours do you complete the 36 and the 72 mile outings? And what sort of boat & paddle are you using? How often do you make these journeys? Are we talking statute miles or sea (nautical) miles? I'm sure he means statute miles and I would venture that it takes hime ALLLLLL morning to do that kind of trip. that would take him 6 hours at 6mph (10 min miles)... Still though, this guy is in some SERIOUS good shape.. :-) I was able to go at 5.98mph average for 8.5 miles the other day and it wasn't TOO hard but I had a 1-2knot ebb.. and I'm a beginner with a 'slow touring' boat..
Edited by NYCmitch25 (09/18/09 08:44 AM)
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#1951 - 09/19/09 10:50 AM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: NYCmitch25]
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Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
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I'm going to chime in here and wonder if this fastination with all out speed is somewhat out of place with reference to paddling. Yes indeed it is nice to have a fast kayak, but if speed is your real interest, then I have to also wonder how paddling is going to satisfy that lust in the long run.
Let's get honest, guys, there isn't really that much difference between a super fast kayak and a so-so kayak. What?--Maybe one point something mph? If competition is your thing, then go for it, but for just enjoyable paddling, I want a boat that cruises with ease and is comfortable and dry in the rough stuff and won't put me upside down if I get sloppy. Oh, and the boat has to look good.
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#1952 - 09/19/09 01:48 PM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: magooch]
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Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Springfield, IL
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Magooch. You say,"I want a boat that cruises with ease and is comfortable and dry in the rough stuff and won't put me upside down if I get sloppy. Oh, and the boat has to look good." As a fellow older paddler, these also are my criteria, although my criteria have been met with a very different boat. Top speed is of very little importance to me, but to many others it is a top priority. The younger guys need to have their fun.
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#1953 - 09/19/09 02:33 PM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: MikeH]
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
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Earlier in this thread, in a reply to Timax, I noted a spectrum among kayakers, with Explorers at one end and Players at another. I should have postulated a three-way, triangular grid, with Explorers and Players each at their own corner of the triangle, and Racers occupying the third corner. Racers comprise actual racers and also fitness/workout enthusiasts. These are the intended audience for the various go-fast boats (including surf skis) on the market. A "well-rounded", middle of the road paddler would thus occupy a position toward the center of this triangular grid. I personally am somewhat over toward the Explorer corner. Interesting, though, that Big Trip Explorer paddler Freya Hoffmeister is in a go-fast Epic 18X for the Australia circumnavigation. Did she pick it out? Was it provided free of charge? She and Greg Stamer paddled NDK Explorers for their Iceland circumnavigation. Paul Caffyn always uses ruddered Nordkapps. It may well be that, once you become a powerful, skillful sea kayaker, you find a way to bring out the best in whatever boat you're in.
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#1955 - 09/21/09 01:37 PM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: magooch]
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
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I'm going to chime in here and wonder if this fastination with all out speed is somewhat out of place with reference to paddling. Yes indeed it is nice to have a fast kayak, but if speed is your real interest, then I have to also wonder how paddling is going to satisfy that lust in the long run.
Let's get honest, guys, there isn't really that much difference between a super fast kayak and a so-so kayak. What?--Maybe one point something mph? If competition is your thing, then go for it, but for just enjoyable paddling, I want a boat that cruises with ease and is comfortable and dry in the rough stuff and won't put me upside down if I get sloppy. Oh, and the boat has to look good. You make some good points and I agree with a lot of what you are saying but it doesn't infer that any variation is wrong. I'd say a top sea Kayak would have a normal kayak beat by a couple of knots or more and also have the ability to sustain top speeds for much longer. When travelling 16miles or more, you'd like every advantage. The casual paddling speeds would hence be compromised along with handling or stability per se. Though there are fantastic kayaks which will cut through waves better than some of the more traditional boats. Watch the Epic videos on youtube. I haven't used any of the "fast" boats so I can't yet form an opinion about if they work for me or not, though I think I will be pleased to an extent. Currently, my 16.7 boat will not go much faster than 5.6-6mph seemingly as I've tried to paddle it very hard. Oh, and I prefer skeg.. :-)
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#1957 - 09/21/09 08:13 PM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: NYCmitch25]
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Registered: 02/18/07
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mitch, I wouldn't argue with you one bit about the difference in ultimate speed between "normal kayaks" and a "top sea kayak." Our discrepency is only a matter of definition. I'm saying "so-so" and you're saying "normal." I haven't tested enough boats to be qualified as any kind of expert on the subject, but I have read a lot of reviews on paddling net. and in Sea Kayaker. Outside of a very few very specialized super skinny boats, there isn't a huge difference in cruising speed, or top speed in serious sea kayaks. Like I said, about one point something mph.
I guess you could say that in the world of kayaking, one mph is significant, but only if you're keeping score. The way I keep score is how much I enjoyed my last paddle and whether I did it without hurting myself. I've finally figured out that I'm not Superman and if I try to keep up with power boats, a whole lot of my 66 year old body is going to hurt in a couple of days. My new boat allows me to satisfy my desire for a very nice cruising speed and no sore parts. But I still get a kick out of passing a sailboat from time to time.
Oh, and about paddling hard; I've come to understand that there is paddling hard and paddling efficiently. Efficiently--and I can't realy define that--always seems to do the job better and without the pain-penalty of what I would call, "hard paddling."
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#1961 - 09/22/09 06:40 AM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: magooch]
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
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Here's maybe a useful chart on kayak speeds/efficiencies: http://www.kayakshops.com/kayak_speed.htm The data is not current to 2009, but it makes for interesting reading. You can click on any listed speed and the boats will rearrange themselves. There was an article by a marine architect in a 2008 issue of SK where he notes that every kayak will have one or more "sweet spots" where one gets the most boat speed for the least effort, and he shows you how to figure this out for your own boat. Like Magooch, I'm in no rush (most of the time) while I'm paddling; I paddle at a speed where I feel I'm gliding smoothly along using a relaxed, unhurried, easy stroke. Makes for a great day on the water.
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#1962 - 09/22/09 07:15 AM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: Strange_Magic]
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#1975 - 09/28/09 11:57 AM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: magooch]
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
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mitch, I wouldn't argue with you one bit about the difference in ultimate speed between "normal kayaks" and a "top sea kayak." Our discrepency is only a matter of definition. I'm saying "so-so" and you're saying "normal." I haven't tested enough boats to be qualified as any kind of expert on the subject, but I have read a lot of reviews on paddling net. and in Sea Kayaker. Outside of a very few very specialized super skinny boats, there isn't a huge difference in cruising speed, or top speed in serious sea kayaks. Like I said, about one point something mph.
I guess you could say that in the world of kayaking, one mph is significant, but only if you're keeping score. The way I keep score is how much I enjoyed my last paddle and whether I did it without hurting myself. I've finally figured out that I'm not Superman and if I try to keep up with power boats, a whole lot of my 66 year old body is going to hurt in a couple of days. My new boat allows me to satisfy my desire for a very nice cruising speed and no sore parts. But I still get a kick out of passing a sailboat from time to time.
Oh, and about paddling hard; I've come to understand that there is paddling hard and paddling efficiently. Efficiently--and I can't realy define that--always seems to do the job better and without the pain-penalty of what I would call, "hard paddling." I agree with you with most of this, but I would disagree that the speed differences are minor. To me, going say 3-4 miles in an hour to 6-8 is significant ..
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#1985 - 09/30/09 06:16 PM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: NYCmitch25]
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Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 35
Loc: washington
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Some one once asked me "What's the difference between a kayak that goes 3 mph and a kayak that goes 3.5 mph?" I replied "the difference is that after 30 minutes the other guy is a quarter mile ahead of you!" It is my experience that differences that would be trivial in other vehicles are huge in sea kayaks.
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#1989 - 10/02/09 07:48 AM
Re: Rudders VS Skegs
[Re: osprey]
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Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
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I guess we could beat this to death, but my original point was that most sea kayaks are fairly similar in their cruising speeds and that is the range where most people will paddle most of the time. I've come to appreciate seaworthiness, stability, comfort, tracking and efficiency and if all that comes in a package that is capable of a nice turn of speed--then you're talkin.
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