Online Community

Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#4840 - 04/09/12 09:39 AM Re: Life Jacket vs PFD - Dressing for immersion [Re: ShiverMeTimbers]
Mark Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 01/18/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Seattle, WA
As I'm involved both professionally and as a volunteer in the paddling community I've learned that two of the most aggravating words I hear are "experienced" and "Intermediate". And neither of these words mean that the user is knowledgeable or educated.

Regarding flotation, I agree that flotation is a necessary and required piece of safety equipment. But flotation only does you good, at least here in the cold water, if there is someone to haul you out of it. In fact, every year here in Seattle, on New Years Day, we have the Cold Water Rescue Seminar. At this free event we encourage paddlers to show up dressed in their kayaking finest (what they would typically wear to paddle in cold water) and just float out in the cold water until they're cold enough to haul themselves back onto the beach. Just floating and wearing typical gear under a drysuit people typically last 10 to 15 minutes before they get out. It's quite an eye opening experience for many. Especially since so many paddle around wearing less in the summer when the water is only a few degrees warmer, especially those pesky SUP folks. wink

The next part of that seminar is to help participants develop strategies to get the swimmer out of the water quickly, as in the first thing they do. The overall point of the whole deal is to emphasize that cold water kills and not through hypothermia.

To your point that you can still drown in the waves; well not much to be done about that except carry SCUBA gear. It also raises an entirely different topic revolving around trip planning and risk assessment/management. Perhaps you shouldn't have gone out that day?

At the end of the day, I'm happy if people just wear the bloody things rather than tell me they are strong swimmers or that they don't plan to tip over. Wear the PFD, wear the PFD, wear the PFD. If you need it and you're not wearing it, it's too late.

Top
#4841 - 04/09/12 10:48 AM Re: Life Jacket vs PFD - Dressing for immersion [Re: Mark]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Really good points, Mark.  We harp on the fact that folks should "swim-test" or "swim" their gear at various water temps (we can have a 45 degree variation between winter and summer in the mid-Atlantic region) - how else can they know what they need at 50F vs 35F.  New concept for many.

My position on any given cold water outing is that if you're unwilling to get in the water & splash around for at least a few minutes, something is seriously wrong - maybe you don't trust your gear or you know it's not enough, or it leaks "a little", or you're scared of getting wet - whatever.  All will be revealed by a little swim.  If you balk at the prospect, you really have no business being on the water that day.

People are also told to "wear a wetsuit or drysuit" when paddling on cold water, but aren't given any specifics, and few seem to have given the concept much thought.  Lots of difference between 1mm & 4mm neo & it has to be a snug fit.  Farmer Johns leave the shoulders, arms etc. exposed.  As you noted, drysuits depend on clothing worn underneath the suit. Otherwise, it has all the utility of a shower curtain.  

Thickness = warmth - the basic concept of insulation, but many
folks will "burp" their suits until they've squashed that insulation flat.  Analagous to sleeping on the cold ground in your sub-zero sleeping bag with the portion underneath you squashed flat.  Hence various pads for underneath the bag - or you can just freeze your ass off all night & get religion the hard way.

Few seem to be aware of these important nuances.  They think buying gear is akin to waving a magic wand of protection over themselves & their outings.  I tell them it's not magic, it's just gear, and all it does is buy you time; how much you choose to purchase is up to you; just make sure it's enough.

I like your picture of folks coming ashore after 10 - 15 minutes
with a newfound appreciation of cold water vs gear.  That event is brilliant.  Nothing like it in our area, but maybe this coming winter.

Top
#5248 - 11/30/12 05:01 PM Re: Life Jacket vs PFD - Dressing for immersion [Re: ShiverMeTimbers]
datakoll Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Florida
I speak with 'unequipped' kayakers in a no wet suit or no dry suit level. The responses is: they do not have the money to equip for their probable time spent kayaking that is if more time kayaking was probable then a higher level of expenditure was/would be 'possible.' Knowing the 'possible' expenditure was not quite disposable income.

I suggest Campmor wet suit equipment at $100, replied with a form of denial for further expenditure. Appearance there is refering into paragraph preceeding followed by a pettit mal seizure. I understand they are apparently suffering from hypothermia or excessive natural exposure during the conversation. They are kayak 'bonking.'

Paddlers with funds bonk coming back in after realizing the skills were not up to conditions when the equipment was.

The unequipped group expresses regret at not having the equipment to paddle beyond their current routes that in their analysis, safe without wet or dry suit equipment.

I'd enjoy going thru an assemblage of photos, drawings of successfully equiped and coordinated pfd: there's not enough room on the one I have. I'll take your advice trying drowning with it - off Flamingo.

Too cold ? Impossible ! NRS/Immmersion polar fleece underwear.

Top
#5249 - 11/30/12 05:14 PM Re: Life Jacket vs PFD - Dressing for immersion [Re: datakoll]
datakoll Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Florida
A further thought ! My interview collection from warm waters is smaller than from the San Juans, Cascades. There's a 'steely resolve' for the 'water' in the north. Here, where 'its always summer' the interviewed requires a few moments to connect the dots of cold - water - danger -hypothermia.

I prod asking if they remember the Tampa Gulf football players fishing drownings...not all remember or consider it a reality.

The CG would cut down on the work load as the Highway Patrol...give that a shot right ?

Top
#5251 - 12/02/12 10:31 AM Re: Life Jacket vs PFD - Dressing for immersion [Re: datakoll]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA

Hi Datakoll-
Glad to see that you're still on the cold water case.

There's a ton of gear on the market these days & unfortunately, there's an even greater amount of bad advice on cold water paddling, cold water safety etc. smeared all over the web  So what's a fun-loving yakker supposed to do when the water gets cold?

Always dress for the water temperature - no exceptions.

OK, fine.  But how do you KNOW that you're wearing enough thermal protection & that it's working properly?  Only one way to find that out, doggies:  
Swim-test your gear:

1) Suit-up
2) Get in the water & splash around
3) Hold your nose & dunk your head.
4) How long you stay in the water is up to you - it's your gear that you're testing, and it's your life that's on the line if you wind up in cold water.

Good, effective, cold water safety advice should be practical, useful, real-world tested, and easy to follow.  No matter how high or low-tech your gear happens to be or how much of it you're wearing, swim-testing gives you immediate, real-world feedback on whether your gear is great and up to speed or whether it doesn't have a prayer of keeping you warm in the water.  

There's nothing wrong with less expensive gear, and also nothing guaranteed about gear that costs a small fortune.  The bottom line is the same for both:  Does it work? Will it keep you warm in the water for however long you need it to.

There's also nothing wrong with wearing a 2mm farmer john and paddling jacket combo - unless you try to use them in conditions -challenging or otherwise - for which they weren't designed and in which they are virtually useless - like, say, 50F water.  

Swim-Test Bonus:  Far better to find out that you forgot to properly close the "relief zipper" on your drysuit when you're still at the put-in rather than half-way across Big Duck Lake.
Just sayin'...
Moulton Avery
National Center for Cold Water Safety

Top
#5283 - 12/19/12 11:38 PM Re: Life Jacket vs PFD - Dressing for immersion [Re: mikekayak]
zeeshan Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 12/05/12
Posts: 2
Loc: Pakistan
Thanks for sharing...!


Edited by zeeshan (12/19/12 11:39 PM)

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2


Who's Online
0 registered (), 5 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(Views)Popular Topics
The Dirigo 17: An Extinct, Unique Sea Kayak 244544
What do you paddle?? 149222
Rudders VS Skegs 73564
What's in your PFD? 65634
Solo Kayaking 62623
Review: Epic 16X 49354
Kayak storage - outside. 47787
How Hard is the Wind Blowing, Really? 47490
Sea Lion`s Dangerous or Not ? 39483
Navigation Lights and Sea Kayaking 38456


 
© 2007 Sea Kayaker Magazine - 'Experience the World's Waterways'