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#4134 - 06/22/11 03:18 PM Storm Islands - August Safety Article.
mikekayak Offline

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Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 324
Loc: Seattle, WA
In the August issue of Sea Kayaker, Matt Broze writes about a rescue that happened a few years back. The group of 3 very experienced paddlers on an off-season paddle find themselves in trouble in the rough waters of Queen Charlotte Strait. All members were successfully rescued because they initiated their distress call before it was too late, and had proper signaling equipment.

Matt, along with comments from two of the members, takes us through the planning of the trip, the decisions that were made and a followup of what went wrong.

We'd like to hear your comments on this safety artcle.
_________________________
Michael Collins
Sea Kayaker Magazine
michael@seakayakermag.com

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#4139 - 06/23/11 06:39 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article. [Re: mikekayak]
NordkappMan Offline
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Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 53
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
I love anything written Matt; he is critically curious, not easily fooled, has the expertise and wherewithal to bring to our attention the salient points with reasonable and insightful recommendations.

Anyone who has ever been involved making a navigational decision that they later regretted will tell you point blank, “If in doubt, don’t!” It can be a hard lesson and one that may take a couple of times to sink in.

It’s nice that the safety net, which is the Coast Guard/military apparatus most commonly involved with search and sea rescues, is there for us as paddlers – most of the time anyway, if they can be notified. That we are part of a boating community that can be tasked in extremis or even solicited for help proactively (where opportunity is sometimes afforded), should give us pause to individually assess our place of responsibility in that same community.

As more of these incidents come to light of experienced, seasoned paddlers getting into trouble, it behoves us all to try and figure out just why and where the ability to manage risk is failing. It has to fall somewhere in the realm of how paddlers think about and process risk taking and avoiding these incidents that may have a net effect of working against our current freedom.

Using Sea Kayaker Magazine as a repository for the more compelling incidents, working through the recommendations so we can learn from what went wrong, and admitting and pointing to our own mistakes rather than hiding them from public, should be encouraged and a level of appreciation held for those who come forward and for those who strive editorially to bring readability and publication for a wider audience.

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#4148 - 06/28/11 12:40 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article. [Re: mikekayak]
NoOffsideRoll Offline
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Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 3
Loc: Seattle, WA
I usually learn something from each issue's "Safety" column but I occasionally find myself wagging my finger at the author and far too smugly reminding myself that *I* wouldn't paddle offshore without a sprayskirt or *I* wouldn't paddle with my PFD under the deck bungies. The August column struck me differently though--these paddlers were quite experienced. They clearly had thousands of miles more under their keels than most of us. So what really went wrong?

I was struck by the fact that although they made some what now seem obvious equipment and navigational errors, they often noticed these errors as they were happening! Rob felt misgivings about the route change and early on noticed problems with the ferry angle towards the islands. Ian broke a rudder pedal and had to feel misgivings about his ability to keep up. But in the interest of "avoiding conflict", they didn't speak forcefully enough. We aren't told specifically that the conflict they were avoiding was with John, but it seems likely, due to the fact that it was his navigation suggestion they were questioning. Fortunately for all of them, they were smart, skilled and equipped enough to summon help, and the fishing vessel and Coasties performed admirably.

This is a fascinating area for risk-assessment research. Do subtle problems with group dynamics and interpersonal relations cause as many accidents as lack of knowledge, training, or experience? Perhaps. I know I find myself sometimes unwilling to speak forcefully to a group leader I know to be more experienced. I hope this story will stay with each of us next time we are hesitant about speaking up while on a trip.

Bravo to Matt Broze for the fine article. Bravo to "Rob" and "Ian" for being willing to engage in fascinating dialog about trip they might rather forget. And bravo to SK Magazine for a fine long-running "Safety" series.

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#4150 - 06/28/11 08:26 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article. [Re: NoOffsideRoll]
Strange_Magic Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
I heartily second NoOffsideRoll's endorsement of the Storm Islands saga in SK. Matt did his usual fine job of gathering up all the salient points, and he had the full and candid cooperation and input of 2 of the 3 participants, making this an especially complete and helpful analysis of a trip gone wrong but ended without tragedy.

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#4152 - 06/28/11 02:25 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article. [Re: Strange_Magic]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
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Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Anyone generous and bold enough to publicly share paddling mistakes, mishaps, and accidents has my appreciation and respect. If we castigate those who come forward with enough vigor, we'll soon have no one willing to share this kind of valuable information. The unproductive rain of criticism was particularly noteworthy in the sometimes vitriolic prose that followed Michael Powers' candid account of his error in judgement. It would have been far more useful to read comments that offered a solution or at least discussed the variables that led him to decide that it was sensible to paddle solo on that occasion. As I pointed out in Anatomy of A Bad Decision, this cognitive process can be messy and complicated terrain, something best negotiated cautiously and with eyes wide open. It's very easy to quietly and gently slip into making a really bad decision and anyone who thinks themselves immune is sadly mistaken.

I think the dynamics of personal interaction and communication play a huge role in accidents, and greater consideration of this important variable would certainly improve the management of risk in our sport. Airlines have instituted protocols to improve safety with respect to cockpit communication and decision making, as have other industries, and we could certainly put to good use a simple communications matrix for sea kayaking safety. If one presently exists, I'm not aware of it.

For starters, we could promote the value of a simple agreement among paddlers that it is the duty of any paddler who feels that little (or big) tug of warning, doubt, insecurity, misgiving, or discomfort to speak up. In turn, it is the responsibility of the group as a whole and individual paddlers in particular, to respect and encourage that kind of discourse, and give those feelings a respectful hearing whenever they're raised. Whether it's an individual problem or something potentially involving the entire group, everyone will be better off when things are out in the open.

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#4154 - 06/28/11 11:36 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article. [Re: ShiverMeTimbers]
NordkappMan Offline
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Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 53
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Good comments Mr. Avery. I think one can see where the cognitive process can be impaired during stressful moments when, unfortunately, keen decision making is required. These emotion-based decisions, like the one the three paddlers made to attempt the crossing earlier than planned to get home sooner (so they thought!) certainly appeared to look like it had the emotional bookmarks often seen in outdoor adventure pursuits where thoughts of home and family, warmth and comfort,, and freedom from a current interpersonal hierarchy that’s not overly joyful override or subdue logical thinking.

Domasio’s somatic-marker hypothesis does seem to have some bearing here, whereby the decision-making paradigm was biased toward what the paddlers thought was an advantageous option – which is what the theory proposes will happen when the cognitive process is overloaded.

We also know that very often there will be conflict and difficulty communicating effectively in a group paddling situation. There will be differences of opinion about conditions yet developing, the question of what sea states can be handled that day, and what the best options should be. It takes common sense, intelligence, cooperation, forthrightness, openness, higher rather than lower emotional IQ, and sometimes – unfortunately, mind-reading. Fortunately, there have been some good examples of good group decision making in the pages of Sea Kayaker over the years; I’m thinking of the La Nina all-female paddling expedition down the outer coast of BC a few years back, where deference was given to the member with the least confidence each day.

Anyway, a sense of calm and grace overwhelms me every time I read anything you write or post here Moulton. Thank you.

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#4164 - 06/30/11 12:34 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article. [Re: NordkappMan]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
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Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Thank you for your generous comments about my writing, Nordkappman. I feel much the same way about what you've written on this Forum, and I always read what you have to say with great interest. Insightful, intelligent, eloquent, and well-considered, your opinion is a real contribution to the conversation.

I echo your praise of the really fine job Matt Broze did in his analysis of the incident. I'll repeat what Eric Soares said of my Cold Shock article 20 years ago: What Matt has to say in this article “should be stapled to the forehead of every sea kayaker”.

Damasio's hypothesis goes a long way toward explaining some the group's flawed decision making, and I agree that emotional bookmarks likely played a very significant role in this incident. I've always found the classical economic notion of exclusive cognitive rationality laughable. Any ad agency in the country can give you countless examples of the non-cognitive emotional decision making process in action. As you point out, that process is particularly evident and noteworthy in their decision to deviate from their planned route, attempt the more exposed crossing of Queen Charlotte Strait, and get to Port Hardy “a day earlier”; thereby lessening by one day the physical beating and discomfort they were enduring. It was a big, ripe, juicy plum they simply couldn't resist picking.

Poor decision making illuminates only part of the story, however, and I think you're right on target in citing variables like common sense, intelligence, cooperation, forthrightness, and openness as really important components in this kind of incident. I was practically leaping out of my chair shouting Yes! Yes! Yes! when you called attention to the La Nina all-female paddling expedition's wise and sensitive policy of deference to the least confident among them. That's a perfect example of group dynamics being informed and guided by a protocol established well before the trip begins. I've been a proponent of establishing pre-trip ground rules or agreements since my wilderness school days in the 70's. It's a standard of practice that proved its worth time and again in the field, and it never let me down.

This was a trio of skilled and experienced paddlers who got into trouble, and while there were more than enough errors, omissions, and oversights in the whole trip to keep critical wags busy, what really fascinates me is that virtually all of the major problems and mistakes could have been averted by better group dynamics, communication, situational awareness and attention to gear. That's the good news I see emerging from a careful review of these sorts of incidents, because it suggests that by placing greater emphasis on a few key concepts and ground rules, paddlers can greatly increase the safety and enjoyment of any trip.

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#4263 - 07/27/11 03:44 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article. [Re: ShiverMeTimbers]
Mark Offline
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Registered: 01/18/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Seattle, WA
Well, it took me awhile to get around to reading this article that all of you are speaking of.

I'll not rehash all that has been said here, suffice to say that the paddlers in question here are lucky, not only due to having appropriate signalling equipment, but also vessels nearby to effect the rescue.

The curious points to me were the complete lack of honest, and sometimes forceful, communication, especially in the wake of an off the cuff plan change involving crossing to unresearched islands and the seemingly shared concerns about one anothers equipment.

I can only wonder how the trip would have been if this team had done a shakedown trip together prior to the main show.

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#4347 - 08/25/11 06:33 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: mikekayak]
Strange_Magic Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
I am a big Matt Broze fan, and always have been. Long before there was a Sea Kayaker Magazine, Matt had written a definitive pamphlet entitled Sea Kayaking Safety, and included it with every Mariner kayak he sold. With Matt's permission, the sea kayaking journal ANorAK published the pamphlet as an integral part of one of its issues. I argued, years ago, that TASK, the Trade Association for Sea Kayaking, at that time the mouthpiece of the sea kayaking industry, replace its sorry little throwaway leaflet Before You Go with an updated version of Matt's pamphlet (it never did). And, of course, over the years Matt largely defined quality writing on sea kayak safety and accident affairs in the pages of Sea Kayaker itself, said writings to form the backbone of the book Deep Trouble. His commentary on the Storm Islands saga continued the standard of Brozean excellence.

That said, I (and I suspect many other readers) was puzzled by Matt's published response to my Letter on the Storm Islands rescue in the October issue. It was as if Matt was replying to some other other Letter that SK received on the subject that stressed "trying to shame the more extreme sea kayakers into limiting their freedom..." and "promoting the limiting of a sea kayaker's freedoms...". I know that I certainly wrote no such Letter, nor did SK publish such a Letter, so the answer may be that Matt's response was, indeed, a reply to an unpublished Letter that may appear in a future issue. My Letter was clearly about reducing the negative component of our public profile by raising the level of prudent seamanship among big-water sea kayakers, reminding them that sea kayaking is not a sui generis activity like whatewater paddlers running waterfalls, but exists instead within a larger context and tradition of marine boating.

Another part of Matt's reply is more troubling. Matt states that he believes the concern for bad publicity is misplaced, and postulates that--just wait--we are going to soon experience a "huge increase" in reported kayaking fatalities, as the explosive increase in rec boats and fishing kayaks makes itself felt. He is very likely correct in his prediction, but he helps to make my case that open-water sea kayakers need to upgrade their seamanship and to become the wisest mariners afloat so as to further distinguish ourselves from both the rest of the open-water recreational boaters (powerboaters, jet-skiers, etc.) and from the impending wave of rec/fishing kayak users with "little or no kayaking expertise" that Matt sees looming on the horizon.

Comments?


Edited by Strange_Magic (08/25/11 06:35 AM)

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#4354 - 08/29/11 10:35 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article. [Re: ShiverMeTimbers]
Illusion Offline
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Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 30
" It's very easy to quietly and gently slip into making a really bad decision and anyone who thinks themselves immune is sadly mistaken."

Spot on!

This is really a fascinating area of safety and survival during any dangerous/challenging activities or circumstances. Which eventually includes daily life.

I would highly recommend that any kayaker (or any backpacker or any climber or any person) not only read "Deep Survival" by Gonzales--but to thoroughly study it.

I have learned so many critical concepts from repeatedly studying it, and it's the kind of book where I know that each year when I reread it, there will be something new, something deeper as I grow as a person.

There is one sobering point, however, which is critical to understand: the way the human mind is wired, it is virtually inevitable that we'll make mistakes. Certainly we should try to minimize them. And we should use our knowledge to take on only that amount of risk which seems appropriate to ourself. Yet we must factor into that risk assessment that the mind is--in certain ways--hard-wired for certain errors.

Seriously, study "Deep Survival". Priceless.

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#4356 - 08/29/11 03:15 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article. [Re: Illusion]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
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Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Deep Survival is one of the best wilderness books I've ever read. There is a wealth of information and good advice to be mined, and as Illusion says, the book bears repeated reading. Ditto most of the original sources listed in the Selected Bibliography.

Mistakes are, indeed, inevitable. However, the hopeful note in DS is that humility and a little knowledge can go a long way in helping one to avoid them, or at least to minimize the collateral damage when they occur. In this respect, a little knowledge, while perhaps dangerous, sure beats stumbling around totally clueless.

Furthermore, although accidents do happen all the time, they don't necessarily have to happen to you. Things like cold shock, or getting caught on the summit of Gotta Late Start Tower in Yosemite when the afternoon thunderstorm rolls through are not inevitable occurrences, at least not on an individual level.

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#4359 - 08/29/11 11:30 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
NordkappMan Offline
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Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 53
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Carl,

Perhaps Matt took umbrage with you implying that the local kayaking community had every right to be upset with the three paddlers in the wake of the incident. Just for context, the original local newspaper story indicated the paddlers had set off into far worse conditions and subsequently battled five meter breaking seas and that one of the paddlers (Ian in Matt’s story) wasn’t given a choice not to cross. The three paddlers obviously became paddling pariahs locally and I think Matt was showing some deference here, especially to the third paddler who chose not to contribute his narrative -- though the newspaper story did highlight the contributory freak tide (something that Matt did kind of gloss over). I see there’s also a letter to the editor cutting the three paddlers a bit of slack because of the writer’s own experience with the same tidal force anomaly in that location.

As to your request for comments on the more substantive question regarding Matt’s diatribe about freedoms and limitations in response to your letter or some as yet not seen letter to the editor, I personally think Matt was just spring boarding into his own deep end. For as long as I’ve known him on various forums, he has had the propensity to do this or sometimes take off on a tangent belying his considerable, ratiocinative powers. I’ve learned to not react too negatively to what Matt writes – just sit back and think about what he has to say; let it sink in; postulate what has led him to his conclusion; and to extract and learn from him -- jettisoning any unwanted deck load at some future point if I must. This has taken patience some days. And yes, remember Matt has forgotten more about paddling that I’ll ever know, or you, or most of us.

I didn’t agree with all of your perspective in your letter either but, your main point regarded the notion that sea kayakers should be the best possible mariners, and who could disagree with that? Not me anyway. Adventurous paddlers seeking big and broken water ought to consider seriously your rational and proposal. I think many do. I think some forget and need reminding. I think some paddlers need to re-commit themselves to the notion. Whether a paddler is an extreme water seeker or one who perhaps more nobly seeks an epic voyage of discovery, the sea is no less demanding, even to the kayak fisher 10 miles offshore and unfortunately the public far less forgiving than they are with the waterfall and Class V whitewater mavens of madness.

For me, it’s twofold: work toward becoming a better mariner, nay, the best mariner you can be. Realize mistakes are made so give yourself or your group enough of a margin for error – this in the context of whatever type of paddling you do. In recognizing we all make mistakes (even “fuddy-duddy”, plus quam perfectum paddlers can get into deep trouble from time to time), we should continue to examine, discuss, and attempt to understand why, where and how these mistakes occur. That in itself will never be a perfect process but at least it hopefully evolves the activity forward. There are enough paddlers working against that notion that the rest of us least not subvert the process while still allowing ourselves some fun and freedom on the water we love.



Edited by NordkappMan (08/29/11 11:31 PM)
Edit Reason: Post didn't pick up Carl's quote

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#4367 - 08/30/11 10:51 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: NordkappMan]
Strange_Magic Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
Doug, thanks for your input. This issue of paddlers' rights, freedoms, responsibilities, search/rescue costs (privatized or socialized), etc. is going to continue to play out over the months and years ahead, as Matt correctly hinted at in his warning about the wave of rec/fishing kayaker accidents/rescues to come. Just Google Staten Island Kayakers Rescued, with NYC Mayor Bloomberg's fiery denunciation of two local kayakers venturing out during Irene, capsizing, and having to be rescued. They were subsequently served summonses, for disorderly conduct (I think). As of yet we know nothing of these paddlers' experience or expertise level, but it has created a local media frenzy.

Sooner or later I think the sea kayaking community is going to have to deal with certain "realities". It just won't do to wax rhapsodic, a la Jack Izzo, about the glory and grandeur of the heroic and God-blessed-and-sanctioned risk-takers, or to fulminate against those yearning to take away our constitutionally-endowed right to paddle any way and anywhere and anytime we want (it's in there somewhere). To simultaneously expect and even require that we be searched for and rescued from our errors at the public's expense, does not logically follow from the tenets of the New Libertarians, who disdain government in all its manifestations, including government's notions that it can regulate certain aspects of marine boating. No, rhetoric won't do; we need reasoned discussion of serious issues--issues that TASK, in its years of folly and denial, failed to address. Maybe we can discuss them here.

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#4373 - 08/30/11 07:30 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
NordkappMan Offline
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Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 53
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Carl, a bit of a ramble following, but I had to laugh at your post. I was performing Google searches late last week with “Hurricane Irene” and “Kayakers rescued” and didn’t get any hits. I should have kept it up. Too funny, especially after your letter about Google searches. I figured given the increased attention extreme kayaking is garnering these days, that someone on the eastern seaboard was bound to be out there being silly. I see there was another arrest for someone paddling down a main street in another area. I’ve done enough hurricane paddling off Vancouver Island to know you don’t do it where you can be seen and you don’t do it if you can’t exfiltrate under your own stream. No, I don’t do it anymore. At least not for now. I grow horns and can’t be trusted. I’m also a frustrated, depressed paddler these days too but owe it to the community to behave myself – even if Matt thinks that’s a fuddy-duddy stance. Heh heh.

Just so we are straight on this, at no point in my wilder days did I ever actively carry a “help-button” or contemplate calling in a rescue. John Winters always maintained on our Paddlewise forum that if he wanted to go off alone into deep wilderness, he should have the right to do this without a societal pressure to carry rescue communication devices nor the added advantage of knowing you could call for outside assistance if you got in too deep. If he had an unexpected medical emergency, well that’s his problem. How much more so should that sentiment carry forward for those of us who pursue wilder pastimes? And when a paddler wipes out in dumping surf off the coast of South America, his head buried in Penguin poo and their kayak broken in half, do they deserve extraction at someone else’s expense? I don’t frickin know. There are no absolutes in this game. There are lots of opinions though.

I personally put in my rescue practice; I'd often be found dumping solo offshore in conditions that would be a real emergency, maybe even life and death for many paddlers, capsizing and swimming on purpose so as to replicate a real life scenario should I blow a roll or scull recovery. That doesn’t fit into a prudent kayaker mariner profile but it did and will help you understand the dynamics and maybe be part of the reason you make it home for those so inclined to challenge these types of waters. I fear few paddlers really understand how important a commensurate rescue practice regime really is. I had to give up teaching paddle float rescues for our club because no one wanted to pump their cockpits dry as it was too much work and I too insistent that the self rescue wasn’t complete until one was under way, mostly dry, skirt attached, stable and headed for safety. Matt’s Safety Manual made this abundantly clear years ago making me realize my BCU re-enter and roll was only half the battle. By the way, those dump and pump sessions were on flat water with the clubbers – imagine these folks in rough conditions.

As for freedoms and limitations, it really doesn’t matter what you, me or Matt think, the vision and realization for kayak marinership and the requirement for ocean playboaters/ dangerous journey seekers to be prepared and trained properly for their expansive exploits is a matter born by the individual paddler. The individual paddler is sovereign both in life and actions. Carpe libertatem…Matt probably has it right. I’m just trying to find the right balance in all this Carl and maintain some responsibility. Matt is also right about stories like the Storm Island rescue helping us to become better mariners through these lessons learned, as once you are in a boat on the water, you are a mariner with all the implications that carries. That we must all agree on I think. So you are completly right too Carl.

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#4376 - 09/01/11 02:24 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: NordkappMan]
Strange_Magic Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
Doug, having read Matt's response several times, I'm more puzzled by it now than I was at first reading. Herewith additional grounds for puzzlement:

1) Are we or are we not, as sea kayakers, to be concerned about bad publicity? In the Storm Islands article, Matt brings up the subject as the first item on his agenda, noting that the incident made the news, that the accounts may have been sensationalized and in error on several points (he doesn't give his opinion), and that many in the local kayaking community were upset by the bad publicity. We need not wring our hands over the possibility of sensationalism and errors; that's inherent in coverage of such stories, and needs to be factored-in as an ever-present possibility, even reality, in kayak accident/rescue reporting.

But if we are not to be concerned about bad publicity, why did Matt introduce the topic right from the get-go? What's his point? Then later, in answer to my Letter, he suggests that, while worrying about bad publicity about sea kayaking may be "misplaced" (what does that mean?), we should gear up for an onslaught in kayaking fatality stories resulting from all those rec/fishing kayak users out there who will be dying like flies. Will that be misplaced?

I just don't get where Matt is at, on this topic of publicity. I wish and hope that he, or somebody, can explain. Are we to ignore reportage, publicity, and public opinion entirely, or to instead pick-and-choose those parts that suit us (Freya circles Australia!), or to strive to be invisible (by being the wisest and most mature boaters on the water--my view)?

2) Where does the idea of making paddlers sign agreements to not seek outside help come from? The mind boggles... Who would one sign such an agreement with? And what would one get in return?

3) It is refreshing to have Matt's forthright assertion that sea kayaking is a dangerous sport, and that we are only a capsize away from an emergency situation. What is really new is his notion that there would be "a lot more" sea kayaking fatalities (and, I guess, accidents and rescues), if under-30 paddlers were out there on the water in force. I'd not ever considered looking at sea kayaking through this lens, but it sounds like Matt is saying something like I am: we need more maturity, more emotional stability, more experience, more knowledge, more judgement, more common sense, more simple caution and prudence out there on wide waters in our tiny, narrow, "tippy" cockleshells than maybe we have at present, and that we need to upgrade our expectations of responsible seamanship of ourselves and our peers. Is that the same thing as "shaming more extreme sea kayakers into limiting their freedom"? If people think it is, we've got problems.

In closing, I note that the Michipicoten Island rescue story in the same October issue raises some points of interest, for instance the thinking behind the purchase of the ACR PLB. Would the couple have considered repeating the crossing to & from Michipicoten had they not had the PLB? But that's a whole other subject.


Edited by Strange_Magic (09/01/11 02:39 PM)

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#4377 - 09/01/11 06:49 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
NordkappMan Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 53
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Yes Carl, I scratched my head too upon re-reading the response in light of some of your concerns, not that folks have not said to me something similar regarding some of your thoughts, but then I’ve been paddling long enough to now get where you are coming from most of the time. Perhaps the Storm Island article opening salvo was simply to walk the reader down the path toward Matt’s notion that the paddle community reacts harshly to these incidents so as to mask their own collective and/or individual fears that this could never happen to them, or as he put it:

“Another factor may explain some of the harsh criticism. Experienced kayakers want to feel that they are, through their skill and expertise, in control of their fate. When skillful paddlers get into serious trouble it may threaten our confidence and make the ocean scarier place. To control our fear we may attack those involved as incompetent. Blaming the victim helps us regain confidence: We wouldn’t make such dumb mistakes. Distanced from those who got in trouble, we can go to sea with less apprehension. In reality we all make mistakes and must be prepared to recover from them, or summon help.”

I’d hate to second guess Matt, as I know that bothers him if I do, and I do respect him (remembering arguments we maintained in print decades ago through glacially slow newsletter exchanges whereupon when I look back now, I realize he was so right on so many points). However, putting aside other paddler’s inward, psychologically-based concerns for bad publicity, there is a legitimate concern – for bad publicity concerns – in the public’s mind. I think the concern IS so very, very valid. You have pointed this out here, in your letter, and on other forums and topics online. I’m not so sure Matt agrees or disagrees though.

Maybe the media backlash toward paddling incidents through the growing rec boat and kayak fisher paddling segments will eventually far overshadow incidents by the other categories of kayak paddlers (?) though it will take some keen reportage to start sorting out all the different types of paddle craft.

Not sure what is up with the signed agreement comments and rescue costs, etc. Perhaps Matt is presupposing those with a bent to limiting our freedoms, even for worthwhile motives, might tend to be agreeing with that agenda (and as you know, there has always been talk about making various recreational sport segments start paying for their own rescues in cases of wholesale incompetence). I would not have assumed you were going down that road from what was in the content of your letter.

Let’s just say I know the three paddlers in the Storm Island rescue story very well and I certainly underwent a personal paradigm shift in my thinking after the incident received the publicity it did – a shift toward a view of a paddler, preferably, as a consummate waterman, a true mariner and a competent seafarer/navigator. Some of that comes with physical age, experience, and maturity. It is also very true that a male’s brain is somewhat immaturely developed until about his mid twenties in terms of risk management and this has been born out in Red Cross statistics and research, as well as by other agencies and well, just look around. So Matt is right on that point, perhaps.

Maybe try and get hold of Matt. He’s pretty quiet on other on-line forums these days but is usually up to a debate I’d dare say. In the meantime, hold on to your convictions. I’d certainly feel remorseful and like something was lacking out there if your voice was muted or you ran away.

Doug


Edited by NordkappMan (09/01/11 06:54 PM)
Edit Reason: tiny edit spellig

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#4378 - 09/02/11 07:14 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: NordkappMan]
Strange_Magic Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
Doug, I truly value and enjoy your feedback on these issues--it's too bad that this SK Message Board is not yet widely-enough known so that we could have some additional input from others, but maybe the very high quality of our discourse here will eventually draw others in......

I understand Matt's "psychological" explanation of the harsh criticism of those who get themselves into serious trouble on the water, but I favor the more direct notions, such as: A) many of these incidents are the result of being ill-conceived and/or ill-executed, and thus just plain violate our ideas of seamanship (it would be helpful to every sea kayaker to read Roger Taylor's marvelous little book The Elements of Seamanship; though written mostly for sailors, there's no doubting that sea kayakers could learn much about proper mariner mindset from Taylor); and B) people like me worrying about being, eventually, driven off the water by governmental regulations stemming from too much perceived foolishness out there by people in kayaks. I'd really hate that! For me, it's that simple. And that's something we can discuss--how real that danger is.

No danger of me not holding on to my convictions, and I entirely share your view that it would be great if Matt (and many others) could join us here. Matt probably doesn't remember me from Adam, but he and I do go back a while, to the mid-1980s when I edited ANorAK, the Journal of the Association of North Atlantic Kayakers for a season or two, and we had several dealings with one another. It was during that time that we published Matt's Sea Kayaking Safety, and also had some of our best discussions on wetsuit/drysuit use, and the differences at that time between East Coast/Great Lakes views as opposed to Pacific Northwest/British views about dealing with the cold water threat. Those were the days.....

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#4379 - 09/02/11 07:19 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
Safetytruth Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 2
A recent fax to set the historical record here:

Dear Editor of Sea Kayaker Magazine:

Re: Michipicoten Island Rescue, SK October 2011

Your Magazine describes above yet another highly dangerous "rescue" costing taxpayers thousands of dollars, this time involving a large double kayak that the victims thought they could use to "rescue" themselves by using a paddlefloat and somehow pump themselves out. Your deadly mis-information left them with a flooded double kayak that could not rescue anyone; although Ed Gillett crossed the Pacific Ocean using sponsons for extra stability when his life demanded it, just like Hannes Lindemann crossing the Atlantic in a double canoe with cork sponsons in 1956. Your Magazine has sometimes printed truthful information regarding paddlefloats and sprayskirts and pumps that have left so many victims to die in the water with no hope of the flooded kayak rescuing them, (approximately 2,000 dead Americans in canoes and kayaks according to the US Coast Guard, since 1993 when you first truthfully published sponson information).

Sometimes your Magazine implies that they should have simply been able to perform an "Eskimo Roll"; although the Arctic peoples often failed to roll successfully and died in large numbers relative to their population. "However Reimer was an experienced sea kayaker...His Eskimo roll was not strong, so there was only his paddlefloat." "Hanging onto his upside-down boat, he lifted his paddle over his head. In spite of the rough seas, he waved it back and forth..." (Sea Kayaker, June, '01, p.54) Many Arctic peoples did not roll at all, and some even employed some kind of sponson concept. Note: "A capsized paddler who Eskimo rolls is still in the same conditions that capsized him or her in the first place, and with each roll he or she will take on more water, lessening the kayak's stability." Matt Broze, Deep Trouble, p.91 Today, the idea of transforming the flooded canoe or kayak into a life raft to paddle to safety, is clear and obvious, except for your published misinformation. Transform a canoe or kayak in emergencies simply, quickly and inexpensively into a liferaft, to paddle even fully flooded, the water acting as ballast for further stability; that is neutral buoyancy ballast, as in the concept by Archimedes. The most common life threatening emergencies in canoes and kayaks did not escape the normal intelligence of human beings, even thousands of years ago. Your Magazine and others like it, selling fraudulent instruction and advertising, create deadly misinformation for profit. I understand that Sea Kayaker Magazine is in a competitive market and you would simply lose advertisers and go bankrupt if you did not publish the same deadly misinformation as Canoe and Kayak Magazine, for example. Canoes and kayaks kill far more innocent citizens in the U.S. and Canada per use hour than any road vehicles. But thankfully strong and honest consumer advocacy exists for vehicle safety. You and other members of your cult deliberately profit from lying to the American public, stealing their money for fraudulent instruction and endangering their lives. This action has killed hundreds of American children in kayaks and canoes. This is easily proven in a court of law: it is plain and obvious.

I have created a simple fact page for lawyers in the U.S. and Canada who plan to sue participants in this canoe and kayak safety fraud that has killed thousands of victims since your article: "Once you have the Sea Wings fitted and adjusted, its advantages over the paddlefloat become clear. To use a paddlefloat, a certain amount of instruction and practice is needed. But with Sea Wings, I simply told my volunteer how to snap the four buckles, inflate the sponsons, and climb back aboard." (Sea Kayaker Magazine, Winter, 1993) Please read http://www.sponsonguy.com/Classactionlawsuit.html You have tried to warn about paddle floats: "...It has two fairly serious shortcomings: You can't seal the sprayskirt, and you can't keep both hands on the paddle while pumping." (Sea Kayaker Magazine, February 2003, p.29) "Sea Wings are simply the best and easiest-to-use self-rescue device on the market today." Sea Kayaker Magazine, Winter 1993, p.34 Today the victims in your Magazine article above could have purchased CO2 sponsons, simply pull a cord to inflate in emergencies, components of air bladder and CO2 inflator being the same as an inflatable PFD: very simple, lightweight, and less expensive than a wet suit or a drysuit. CO2 sponsons cannot be sold, nor any type of a dozen types of sponsons can be sold due to your malicious treatment of sponsons within your magazine and the cult at large: "There is even an interesting look at the development and vitriolic promotion of sponsons as safety devices for kayaks and canoes." p.53, Sea Kayaker Magazine, February 2009.

It is not all your fault. Sometime you have printed the deadly truths about paddle floats; but you did not mention sponsons as a reasonable lifesaving alternative. Read Matt Broze in both Sea Kayaker Magazine and Paddlewise: "The most effective way of using a handheld bilge pump in rough seas is to lift the bottom of your PFD up and shove the pump down between the spray skirt and your belly. This way is slow and awkward, but you can pump with the spray skirt completely sealed. Practice it." (p.27, Sea Kayaker Magazine, June 2006.) Matt Broze, "Pumping Out after Paddle Float Rescue", Paddlewise, Wed, 20 Jun 2001 02:36:43 -0700: "...obviously there are going to be certain combinations of clothing and spraydecks that don't allow a pump down the front. Please try it and report back (if you don't knock yourself out and drown after hitting your chin)." The idea to shove the pump down the top of the sprayskirt requires unfastening the PFD, since the tops of sprayskirts normally extend some distance underneath the PFD. Mr. Broze in "Deep Trouble" (p.84) accepted limited culpability for misleading dead David Kelley with a paddlefloat "talisman", but negated this admission by not confessing the main paddlefloat dangers: impossible to pump out in real conditions, impossible to brace and retrieve the paddle behind the cockpit without re-capsizing; despite referring to needed sponsons stability in several places in "Deep Trouble"!

I shall fax this letter to you at Sea Kayaker 206-781-1141 today, September 2nd, 2011.

Yours truly,
Tim Ingram
phone 705-549-3722

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#4381 - 09/02/11 05:03 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Safetytruth]
Strange_Magic Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
Uh-Oh.

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#4382 - 09/02/11 10:57 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
NordkappMan Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 04/21/06
Posts: 53
Loc: Victoria BC Canada
Oh Timmy! Too bad he goes off on a radical tangent. He’s got a good product with strong safety merits and advantageous attributes in the many situations that would tax one’s strength with other rescue devices, including the paddlefloat/hand pump self rescue (which really requires some significant practice for use in rough seas). I’ve recommended sponsons in the past but it is only one of many rescue devices with its own inherent demerits as well.

Consummate seamanship is still one’s primary way to keep from having to use these devices in extremis, but at some point equipment and back-up devices, as most good boaters know, may be required for situations like unexpected heavy weather sailing, including the use of tow wraps. Sea anchors and drogues can work too for the mariner caught off guard but, these devices have disadvantages too (stress loads to vessel, twisting tethers, etc).

Being the best mariner you can be is the only thing that stands the test of time. Making that an individual reality amongst the many types of vessels and gear and techniques and regional differences and approaches to personal safety isn’t something I can determine for someone else, only myself. One can share their recommendations and experiences. And mental stability helps.

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#4383 - 09/03/11 06:57 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: NordkappMan]
Strange_Magic Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
Doug, I agree with you about Ingram's sponsons. After following the thread on Paddlewise, I decided to buy a set just to see for myself what this was all about. I found the sponsons themselves to be a quality product, but Tim's method of attachment to be problemmatic, so I rigged my wooden kayak with small permanent attachment points and set up my own rig to affix the sponsons to the boat. Worked very well--the gained stability is remarkable. Meanwhile, I continue to speculate on a better way of affixing the sponsons such that they could be swiftly deployed on a standard hardshell kayak without needing to affix hard, permanent attachment points.

But Ingram has chosen a confrontational, quasi-libelous full-attack mode on the entire small-boat world, with the results that anyone would expect. In my opinion, he is more interested in triumphing over his foes than in selling sponsons. Maybe small boat safety would be better served if he turned over his interest in sponsons to a neutral party, so that their merits could be more advantageously be exhibited.

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#4384 - 09/03/11 02:16 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Just a thought, lads and lasses, but perhaps the aquatic difficulties encountered by Beltran & Gottlieb on their Michipicoten paddle (SK Oct 2011) stemmed from the fact that they began their crossing at Le Petite Mort Rocks.  "The Little Death", as you may or may not know, is a popular French idiom for orgasm.  Unquestionably a marvelous place to linger, it is not a place from which one should voluntarily seek to depart.

On another note:  vitriol and bile selleth not the sponson...

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#4386 - 09/05/11 09:13 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
Safetytruth Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 2
For anyone not familiar with canoes and kayaks, any victim not able to get out of the water will die, even wearing a PFD
or thermal protection. This fact has been known for thousands of years everywhere in the world. Sponsons were invented to
provide a means of self-rescue that is inexpensive and foolproof enough to be entrusted with human life: transforming the canoe
or kayak into a life raft in seconds to rescue victims immediately. Sea Kayaker Magazine and Mr. Broze have apparently
enjoyed their part in denying American citizens any means to rescue themselves since 1993, providing Mr. Broze with deadly
material to write "rescue articles" about, in the guise of "safety". Broze and this cult, briefly quoted in their forum below, are so
brazen in their endangerment of American citizens that even vulnerable American school children are taught the impossible
paddlefloat: "...It has two fairly serious shortcomings: You can't seal the sprayskirt, and you can't keep both hands on the
paddle while pumping." (Sea Kayaker Magazine, February 2003, p.29), while denying American citizens knowledge of
sponsons: "Sea Wings are simply the best and easiest-to-use self-rescue device on the market today." (Sea Kayaker Magazine,
Winter 1993, p.34)

This is by far the largest deliberate consumer death scandal in the United States:
The death rate is far beyond what could be reasonably expected from such a small industry, a death rate far above the most
dangerous vehicles on the road, in use hours. The US Coast Guard report 071-01 reveals: "Canoes and kayaks have by far the
highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42) as any other boat type". In use hours, canoes and kayaks have a far
higher death rate than the deadliest vehicles: Ford/Firestone had 200 deaths 1993-2000, (canoes and kayaks over 800 U.S.
dead), but the Ford vehicles were far more numerous and were driven far more hours daily. Canoes and kayaks are far fewer,
and are not paddled daily! They are much more deadly than any car when used.

This deliberate and brazen endangerment by Sea Kayaker Magazine and Mr. Broze, causing so many American deaths, is a
very ugly truth. Sponsons, that have enabled human crossings of both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in canoe and kayak,
cannot be sold by anyone today, due to the deliberate and criminal lies by Sea Kayaker Magazine and Mr. Broze. I would
recommend immediate subpoena by legal authorities of the listserver "Paddlewise" a hotbed of cult activity with regard to
paddle float misinformation as well as complete misinformation regarding any type of sponsons, CO2 or 5 second 50 cent
types. "Mens Rea" in this crime is important. The apparent intent is to create as much danger as possible in order to sell as much
fraudulent instruction and expensive equipment as possible.

This fraud is different in intent from the recent fraud by American banks in that the safety of American lives is deliberately
threatened, with many deaths. This same fraudulent practice has also caused deaths in Canada and the UK. Prosecutors in
Seattle, Washington can determine "mens rea" from some of the posters below. They are now on best behavior below,
"Paddlewise" is much more revealing of this cult behavior, especially with regard to libel and threats of bankruptcy toward
anyone condemning their actions. Normal citizens cringe when thinking about school children knowingly exposed to expensive
and deadly paddlefloat instruction. There is no "nice" way for anyone in the world to sell sponsons in the face of this cult
exposed at Sea Kayaker Magazine. (I have had no commercial interest in sponsons for years. I am interested in saving lives and seeing that criminals are prevented from endangering American citizens for profit.) See the recent fax:
http://www.sponsonguy.com/DeadlyPaddlefloatFraud.html

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#4390 - 09/06/11 09:09 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Carl, with respect to your excellent and well-written letter to the editor and Matt Brose's response, I agree that he got off on a little bit of a tear and completely ignored the very valid and important point that you raised about the advisability of us all taking the concept of seamanship more seriously and becoming the very best mariners that we can be. You've been saying that for a very long time, and I've always been glad every time you raised the issue, because when you get right down to the nuts and bolts of our sport, nothing trumps being a competent mariner, or as Eric Soares puts it, a competent waterman.

I agree with Matt that the boom in recreational and fishing kayaks will result in more fatalities - in fact, it already has. Lots of folks out there today who aren't even vaguely competent paddlers, let alone competent mariners. Whether or not all these incidents, accidents, and fatalities will generate a regulatory backlash is a legitimately debatable point; what shouldn't be a part of any debate is the obvious fact that bad publicity is not good for out sport.

I also agree with Matt to the extent that I view sea kayaking as a potentially dangerous sport. It all depends on the circumstances. I've said on more than one occasion that I would rather be leading a group of climbers on top of Rainier in a raging blizzard than be out on open water leading a group of sea kayakers when things went really sour. In my view, it's no contest.

As to the supposed dearth of fatalities that Matt mentions and attributes to the paucity of paddlers under the age of thirty, I would argue that age has little or nothing to do with it. I was a competent and very safety conscious paddler, climber, and wilderness traveler in my 20's, as were most of the people I knew who ventured into the maw of the great outdoors. Ignorance, reckless behavior, and a wanton disregard for safety are not confined to people under the age of thirty.

I also don't agree that we're necessarily "only a moment of capsize and inattention away from an emergency situation" when paddling on cold water. It's certainly true that any cold water paddler who dresses for a day hike by following the exceptionally bad advice that one only needs to dress for the water temperature if one "anticipates encountering "challenging conditions", puts his or her life at grave risk in the event of a capsize. The same cannot be said of the thousands of cold water paddlers who today dress for the water temperature in wetsuits or drysuits. For the paddler prepared for immersion, capsizing in cold water is, with very few exceptions, not even a noteworthy event. If you want an excellent reason as to why we don't have one hell of a lot more sea kayaking fatalities, you don't have to look beyond the promotion of cold water safety and the thousands of cold water paddlers who now embrace a "no exceptions" rule when it comes to dressing for the water temperature. We've made a lot of progress over the past twenty years.

Keep hammering away at it for the next twenty, Carl.

Moulton Avery


Edited by ShiverMeTimbers (09/06/11 09:13 AM)
Edit Reason: moved some words around

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#4391 - 09/06/11 09:17 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Safetytruth]
Mark Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 01/18/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Seattle, WA
I don't know what to say to this...I didn't know I was in a cult. I teach the paddlefloat and strongly encourage new paddlers to learn and become proficient in rolling. Is this a result of brainwashing?

I admit, I'm having a difficult time taking this seriously.

Mark

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#4392 - 09/06/11 09:36 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Mark]
Strange_Magic Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
Moulton, thanks for your kind words, but we both know that the modern era in widespread discussion of the main danger confronting sea kayakers came with your landmark Cold Shock article in SK these many years ago. And kudos to Chris C. for publishing it.


Edited by Strange_Magic (09/06/11 10:06 AM)

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#4393 - 09/06/11 09:58 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
mikekayak Offline

Forum Participant

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 324
Loc: Seattle, WA
Tim,
Welcome to the Sea Kayaker Forum. When you registered you indicated that you had read the rules of conduct when posting. The rules that you seem to have failed to read would include the following.
3) NO PERSONAL INSULTS or ATTACKS. Sea Kayaker provides this site for our users to gather and discuss sea kayaking. You are free to disagree with others, but if you stoop to personal abuse or attacks, your post(s) will be deleted. If you ARE insulted, please do report the post to the moderator, but DO NOT retaliate.

4) CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM ONLY. When making comments or finding faults with products or services related to the Sea Kayaking industry all criticism should be of a constructive nature. If you have found a fault we welcome your ideas as to how it might be improved or perfected. Hopefully manufacturers will use your comments to improve the sport of Sea Kayaking. Posts that tear a product or service apart will be removed.

5) NO TROLLING OR FLAME WARS. Trolling and/or attempting to bait others into a flame war will not be tolerated. Any posts we deem fall into this category will be deleted and/or you will be blocked from posting.

I welcome your comments about sponsons when kept in a positive form with no insults, attacks or efforts to create a flaming war.

Failure to follow these rules will result in you being banned from the forum. We all welcome honest, well written, positive posts and I think you will find this a forum that could help your cause if you don't work so hard at alienating the group.

MikeKayak
_________________________
Michael Collins
Sea Kayaker Magazine
michael@seakayakermag.com

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#4400 - 09/07/11 02:34 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Thanks, Carl. That's really nice of you to say. We also both know that no one accomplishes anything working in isolation by themselves; that's always been true in spades in my case. Had the article fallen on deaf ears, had we not conducted the cold water safety workshops, had you as Editor of Anorak and Chuck Sutherland as Chuck "The Hammer" Sutherland, and a lot of other folks not taken up the cry, I don't think we would have accomplished much.

Still, it's no time for complacency. The fact remains that there's a whole lot that remains to be done. Clueless beginners with absolutely no idea about the lethal nature of cold water are putting paddles into the water all the time. I've been reading their obits all year long.

I'm also concerned about the large and growing number of folks that we simply don't reach when we cast our sea kayaking net. For example, the whole angling community appears to be out of range for the most part, a lot of whitewater paddlers appear to have missed the sermon, and there are a bunch of folks out there who just buy a boat, take it home, and go paddling without giving it a second thought. People buy used boats, borrow some friend's boat, or whatever. It's a long list.

I've felt for a long time that we need a national campaign on cold water safety, which is precisely why I'm in the process of establishing a National Center for Cold Water Safety. We need to harness the energy of a whole lot more than our own sea kayaking community to get the word out. I was pretty good at getting national media attention for the heat and cold stress issues back in the day, and I'm optimistic that I can do it again. As previously noted, however, not all by myself. Stay tuned...
Moulton

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#4404 - 09/08/11 10:27 AM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: ShiverMeTimbers]
mikekayak Offline

Forum Participant

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 324
Loc: Seattle, WA
Moulton
Keep us all informed about establishing a National Center for Cold Water Safety. I'm sure many of the group here would be willing to help in at least getting the word out as your program develops.

I don't know if you've worked with BoatUS or not. They have had grant money for projects like this in the past and are certainly involved with safety issues regarding recreational boating. They have an insurance program and a vessel assist program already well in place and are now making loaner children's PFDs available at marinas across the country. They might be a good partner in your project. I have a contact with them if you'd like it.

Michael
_________________________
Michael Collins
Sea Kayaker Magazine
michael@seakayakermag.com

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#4406 - 09/08/11 12:10 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: mikekayak]
ShiverMeTimbers Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 05/31/10
Posts: 95
Loc: Arlington, VA
Michael-
Thank you for your vote of confidence; it really means a lot to me. I'm definitely going to need more than a little help and advice in a whole lot of areas to make it happen. A contact at BoatUS would be great. Sure beats going in cold (pardon pun). I'll keep you posted as I move forward on this.
Thanks!
Moulton

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#4416 - 09/15/11 01:59 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: ShiverMeTimbers]
mikekayak Offline

Forum Participant

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 324
Loc: Seattle, WA
Moulton,

I've sent you a message through the forum with my contact at Boat US. If nothing else hopefully he can direct yo to the right person. We had him out sailing while he was in Seattle and I would say he is at least very approachable.

Michael
_________________________
Michael Collins
Sea Kayaker Magazine
michael@seakayakermag.com

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#4448 - 10/01/11 09:07 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Strange_Magic]
marktas Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 10/01/11
Posts: 1
carl, re point 1, I think Matt is making a distinction between higly skilled/experienced paddlers like Freya and the miriad of new paddlers out there with no skills/experience or knowledge of the sea where probably the chance of misshap is greater than for the skilled/experienced paddler set even taking account of the more 'benign' conditions the beginner set is in.
re point 3, under 30s dont have a fully developed brain to be able to know the consequences of their actions - thats his point. Also you keep saying things like kayaks are tippy cockleshells and such like - the kayak is one of the most seaworthy craft on the water - have you ever been in a smallish motorcruiser or even cruising yacht in bad conditions? I'd rather be in my kayak for sure!

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#4449 - 10/02/11 12:56 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: marktas]
Strange_Magic Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
Mark, good to have your input.

Looking back at my Point 1), I asked what Matt's position was on sea kayaking publicity: ignore it? pick-and-choose? I fully understand Matt's distinction between skilled/experienced kayakers and the horde of new paddlers, but his position on the role publicity--good, bad--should have in the thinking of sea kayakers remains unclear to me. I wish he would spell it out.

Re Point 3): I'm not sure what we are to do with Matt's "under-30-brain" thesis. He chose to suggest that somebody (me?) was "trying to shame the more extreme sea kayakers into limiting their freedom", but I'll rise above the urge to suggest that he is in favor of screening under-30s off open water.

Regarding sea kayaks as tippy cockleshells, the average single will kill the disabled (unskilled, exhausted, injured, hypothermic, etc.) paddler caught in rough water, unless rescue is at hand. Under similar conditions, if failing the ability to "jog to weather", I'll gladly lie ahull in that smallish motorcruiser or cruising yacht, hunkered down perhaps in a cabin, and hoping for the best.


Edited by Strange_Magic (10/02/11 01:11 PM)

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#5311 - 01/03/13 09:35 PM Re: Storm Islands - August Safety Article [Re: Safetytruth]
dougie Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 3
I felt the need to jump in tonight when a simple search for the seakayaker magazine website led to a very hateful and lengthy commentary against seakayaker magazine and well respected paddlers. I'm sure everyone already knows the party involved. I was not aware of any of this before tonight, but before researching further, I guessed the person to be either a distraught family member or a salesman. Yes, it turns out Tim sells sponsons through very unorthodox means. I find it very troubling that anyone in this community would go to such viscous lengths to sell a product.

my google search brought up: "Deadly Paddle Float Fraud at Sea Kayaker Magazine. my shock at this front page search result, made me continue to find out how a real kayaker could launch such a loathsome campaign. further searches took took me to this forum. I have come to expect honest personable behavior from everyone I have met in the kayaking community, but still surprised and humbled at the extreme politeness of those who here after such continued personal attacks over several years.

I hope Tim gets the professional help he needs to help find a more positive focus for his anger. I also wish there was way to block searches from rewarding this kind of behavior. I don't see how these actions will help convince a kayaker that this is a company to do business with. In fact it has convinced the very opposite for me. I haven't explored the sponson market, but if interested I assume there are other manufacturers.

Keep up the excellent work at SK magazine, I was searching tonight to upgrade my subscription to include both print and digital versions.
cheers!
dougie

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