Hi all I found this great forum and have been reading a lot of the posts. Great info

On a recent trip outing/instruction session we had a discussion about the wet exit and if it's really just for beginners who don't have a bomb prof roll. While the wet exit and self rescues skills are VERY important to master, how many of you still wet exit even after mastering and developing a bomb prof roll?

I have developed my roll to be part of my kayaking skills. I have rolled (Fully loaded/empty) in all manner of surf, chop and conditions that I am comfortable venturing out in. I can't remember the last time I had to do a wet exit except to demonstrate the technique. However I don't think the roll should be a substitute to having very solid self rescue techniques which includes the wet exit.

The topic of discussion we had came down to; while its important to develop the wet exit and all manner of self rescue its also just as important to advance your paddling skills to include a good predictable roll in all conditions you're likely to encounter. This way you have a broad range of skills that let you paddle safe and be confident in the water.

Happy paddling

Looking forward to learn how to roll soon. Rather pop up than do a long self rescue.

The C to C roll is easy to learn. Lots of videos in the subject.

The most important thing is your hip snap and not brig your head up to early.

I learned how to roll quite quick. I watched videos on you tube over and over. I first day I tried wasn't very successful. I was doing the hip snap right but was lifting my head too early. The next time I went out to practice was great. I got the technique down. I use the C to C roll. Rolling is a lot of fun and once you figure it out is simple to do. I do find it easy to roll on one side and more awkward on the other. This season I am gonna practice the sweep roll just to learn it. I tried teaching my girlfriend how to roll but that was quite painful. I am not sure she cares enough to learn it. But , oh well.

I can't get what you're on about if it's important to develop a wet exit ,that is one of the first things you should be teaching in basic skills courses.Firstly so the novice knows how to get out of their kayak when they capsize and secondly to see if they suffer from involuntary gasping reflex,when I am teaching a novice that is #1 cab of the rank,show them how to get out of capsized kayak and then have them do it without a skirt and finally with the skirt on.I stand beside them so if there is a problem you can assist if they show signs of the gasping reflex ,tell them straight they should think about some other sport..A wet exit isn't a solid self rescue technique, it is one of the most important skills a novice HAS to learn to do properly.As for a bomb proof roll,I've yet to meet anyone with a bomb proof roll,both in whitewater and sea paddling,I've seen some of the very experienced paddlers that I have respected since I started paddling miss rolls and have a swim,some times you get in situations where you can't roll no matter how good you are.The other thing is if your novices aren't capsising you're not doing your job of developing their skills and confidence levels by leaving them in their comfort zone and not pushing them into the adventure zone ,and knowing when to pull back if they approach their disaster zone ,if you're doing your job right ,they should be wet at the end of their devolopment session.

I have only had one lesson before the season ended. Next is a rolling. When I went for the first lesson she ask want do you want to learn. I said how to get out and in. I learned the wet exit which I figured I would have little trouble with. I was used to practicing exits on the offshore racing circuit so I was comfortable with no panic. The more important thing I learned was hanging on to the paddle,kayak and a few basic re-entry techniques. Much work to be done in the future.

I agree the best thing is to see if people panic continually even after a few dumps. The other person being instructed with was not comfortable in the water what so ever even with his head above the water and floating.

I'm not sure what you want to discuss; Rolling, self rescue or teaching. That said, I'll offer comments on all three.

Rolling, while I consider this a fundamental skill, it's not the first or second thing I teach or recommend learning. Rolling is the second line of defense of someone with solid skills in WW or the sea, the first line being a good brace.

Second, self rescue comes after failing to roll - if you have a roll in the first place - and in order to effect a self rescue or an assisted rescue you must first wet exit. Enough said.

Third, teaching. As an instructor myself, I'll point out that the wet exit is one of the first on the water skill that a beginner/novice is taught. This is not the automatic response of everyone, surprisingly. I've spent as long as 45 minutes teaching the wet exit to students to get them comfortable with concept of being upside down and having the presence of mind to execute this technique calmly and deliberately.

No roll is bomb proof, not to mention I've been bodily ripped out of my boat by waves a few times. We all swim, it's just a matter of time so we should all practice our rescues not only in the flat, but in the conditions in which we intend to paddle and are most likely to capsize in.

"As for a bomb proof roll,I've yet to meet anyone with a bomb proof roll,both in whitewater and sea paddling,I've seen some of the very experienced paddlers that I have respected since I started paddling miss rolls"

Definitely true. No matter what you think of your roll, it would be foolish to not also train for a failed roll.

Seems to me that what makes a roll more rather than less bombproof is more about the mind than the body. Obviously, excellent technique is a must. But for the experienced roller, if the roll fails it almost certainly is a mental failure: you're nervous about the conditions, so you rush and don't set up. Or maybe you're so distraught you don't even attempt the roll. Or you give up way before you're out of breath because the first attempt failed, and now you're really getting scared.

So this is what I'm trying to work on. Practicing with strong onshore winds on a sandy beach is great. Also, make it a habit to always, always get into a good set-up position, and then always pause for just a moment and consciously think about doing a perfect roll. Do both this physical and mental routine EVERY time. Capsizing in weird positions, or after you're partially out of breath, or with the paddle in an awkward way...these can also help. Convincing yourself ahead of time that no matter how ugly the conditions or how scarred you are, staying in the cockpit and rolling up is always going to be best (except maybe in shallow water near rocks); you can have NO doubt about this in your mind.

I have never had to wet exit a sea kayak. I have often wondered what it would be like. I actually have only rolled a sea kayak once while messing around on the lake one summer. I often wonder what it would be like in rough seas fully loaded. Being a solid whitewater playboater, I am hoping it wont be a big deal when the day comes, but you never know...I guess I should actually practice it someday...

I have sea kayaked over ten years now and have paddled many a storm in open water. But, I have never been in the surf zone with a sea kayak, always use the playboat for that.

I have swam many a times out of a whitewater kayak...

My theory about kayaking is that I do it because I like to paddle. I don't like cold water and I'm not the least bit interested in swimming, or rolling in it. I limit myself to conditions that I'm pretty sure I and the boat can handle and stay top side up in.

That's not to say that I haven't ended up in the water a time, or two, but I took those occasions to vow to do better and not do that again. I am a very good swimmer, but if I want to swim, I will go swimming--but it won't be in cold water.

My view of kayaking is that even a nice long sea kayak is still a very small boat and I'm not going anywhere in it that makes me uncomfortable. I also ride bikes and motorcycles, but I don't race them, or do anything else with them where there is a reasonable chance that I might end up upside down. I guess that's just the way I am.

I am with Magooch on much of what he says here. Not all of us (especially older kayakers) are interested in paddling in conditions where we may need advanced rescue skills. We just love to get out in reasonable sea conditons for us and enjoy our paddles.

That is not to argue against developing strong wet exit/re-entry skills (which I consider essential for anyone paddling in large lakes or the ocean)and at least rudimentary bracing/rolling skills, as I have done. Unexpected conditions do sometimes arise. At least half the safety effort on any trip should go into advanced planning to avoid condtions that the paddler cannot handle. My motto is, "Safety first, last and always".

It sure is nice when you have a bomber roll though...then you will rarely get wet, becuase you will rarley ever swim...

some of the situations I have seen missed rolls by very competent paddlers,washed onto a wave cut platform and too shallow to roll up,sucked out of the cockpit after getting thrashed by a big wave,rolling up in strong winds and the boat being blown back over by the wind,snapped paddles,stuck between rocks where there was no room to roll,plenty of reasons usually not mental issues,when I was doing my instructor training ,our instructor used to paddle,sneak up on you and push you over and keep pushing you over until you had to swim,thats how much emphasis he put on self rescue,even when you were being nice to him like offering him a chocolate bar.But it was a good way of learning not to panic,good exercise for your ears too,I can now hear a paddle entering the water from 30 mtrs away,remember guys ,just living life is full of risk,if you remove all risk ,you remove life itself.Magooch why don't you try paddling in more extreme circumstances ,your paddling skills will improve dramatically.

Why don't I paddle in more extreme conditions? 1) I don't want to. 2) I know my limitations. 3) I have nothing to prove to myself, or anyone else. 4) I don't need adrenaline rushes to enjoy myself. 5) I'm very content with my paddling skills, but I readily admit that my first rule about rescues is don't do stuff that has a high likelyhood of requiring it.

That said, don't get the impression that I paddle only on flat water in only benign conditions. I will admit to being very cautious when the water is colder, but when it warms up I spend a good bit of time playing around in lumpy water.

I might be going paddling today and my prime concern will probably be to avoid any kind of close encounter with a lion. Yup, they're back and in force--the sea lions that is and for me, that is extreme in my book. They are 3000 lbs. of attitude that I'd just as soon do without.

That is why you need to work on a bomber brace and many different bracing techniques. That way when someone sneaks up on you they will roll when trying to roll you because your bracing skills will be stronger than their messing around skills.

If the above post is directed at me; what makes you think that I don't have bracing skills? I said that I avoid situations where there is a strong possibility of being capsized; I didn't say that I wasn't able to handle it. As for someone sneaking up on me and trying to roll me--that has never happened and if it did, I would view that as an assault.

The equivalent to someone sneaking up would be a couple of seal pups clambering up on the aft deck. The video of it shows me bracing viciously but if I'd been asked about it at the time, quite possibly I'd not have noticed much, just instinctive bracing - that's how your bracing becomes if you paddle a very tippy kayak. And I agree with magooch to some extent, one doesn't have to paddle in extreme conditions to still have skills.

Alex

I would also view anything, or anyone trying to crawl onto one of my kayaks as an assault.

The fun of being in a little bay (Tonga Island, Abel Tasman National Park, NZ) full of seal pups (a dozen or so) is that they quite often clamber up on your deck. These ones are so used to kayakers they have no fear and frolic around, under and over kayaks.

Alex

Hope your not packing heat it could get messy! ;>)


I'd take a Mermaid on my deck!

",snapped paddles,stuck between rocks where there was no room to roll,plenty of reasons usually not mental issues,"

wavehog, you are clearly a much more advanced paddler than I am, and I appreciate your comment. However, all the examples you listed are reasons for which a roll is essentially not an option, rather than examples of failed rolls. The one exception would be failing to roll up in high wind, and this seems to be an example of what I was referring to. I think most experienced rollers understand that if the wind pushes you down on one side, you simply need to switch to the other side for an easy roll. So why doesn't that always happen? I suspect it's a mind game, not failure of technique. My point is addressed to those situations in which a roll technically is feasible, yet the paddler fails to execute one. Again, my argument is that the failure in those circumstances is far more likely to be cognitive/psychological rather than physical, and our roll training should take that into account.

Well I have had the "almost failed the roll" roll =)

If water gets into the kayak while upside down it can really throw off your balance.

This past weekend I did a upside down re-entry and roll in the pool. I got it, but almost rolled right back the way I came.

You're right there really is no such thing as a "bomb proof" roll. However it is essential if you don't want to swim to practice it and practice it even more.

What is the coldest water anyone has rolled in?

Dog, there is a cadre of very skilled rollers here in New Jersey, some of whom paddle regularly in Winter (I am not one of these people). This Winter they have been particularly active, both on the ocean and on our largest (and still mostly unfrozen) reservoir, rolling in water only a degree or two above freezing. Mind you, they come prepared to roll, planning to roll, expecting to roll; they are completely dressed for it with drysuits and thick insulating layers, gloves, neoprene helmets/hoods, etc., and are rolling by choice. But this can be a different story from being able to roll well, but being suddenly, unexpectedly capsized in icy water by some unplanned accident or incident.

I was reading when very cold water goes up your nasal cavity it can do some bad things. I'll have to check but some things were gasp and disorientation. I mean if I go out (not that I can roll) you won't have a nose plug on while paddling. It also said it can severely limit your attempts to roll when cold.

Now I have a dry suit I still have not gone out with all the ice on my walks and floaters. Next week I prepare for eye surgery with doctor appointments. Then good bye glasses after cataracts are gone. when paddling no more cleaning glasses! That will be great I can see where I am going in the Boston Whaler and she won't be telling me there's the buoy go right or left!

With no work for my commercial masonry business and no excess funds for the road race Corvette it will be a big paddling year ahead!

Can't wait to get my eyes done!

I took the infa-red gun to the water yesterday and it said 27* F I guess it could read that cold if it is reading surface temperature? May be the gun is off a few degrees? I guess it depends on salinity of the water.

You can keep the water out of your nose by blowing bubbles out of your nose. It eliminates the reliance of another piece of equipment. I can't remember then last time I didn't have at least a bit on awareness that I was losing the battle so that I could begin this. Now it's reflexive, like closing my eyes to keep the contact in place and fine sand or other debris out.

With some practice paddling your boat full of water will also become easier. This is a valuable skill, especially if you like to paddle in rock gardens or in the surge (I know I do). More often than not, rescues in this environment don't lend themselves to emptying out the boat immediately, you have to get out of the danger zone before completing that process.

I did that on my wet exits just blow a bit.

Bad mix, trying to teach your girlfriend how to roll. Have someone else teach her and then have fun and romance practicing together. Pretend that you're holding a sponge between your cheek and your shoulder. That brings the head up last.

The involuntary gasp reflex occurs when cold water makes sufficient contact with the sensitive surface of the skin.(eg. your torso). Wearing thermal protection (wetsuit, drysuit, drytop) during rolling practice will eliminate this as an issue.

Amen, Mark. I just posted about a ripped-off experience in the Scariest SK Experience thread. Oh, what a surprise it is!

Yeah, you should work on it. However, as wavehog, mark, and illusion have clearly pointed out, sometimes it's the water itself that sneaks up on you. Buying into the myth of the "bomber roll" or "bomber brace" can come back and bite you in the rear. Among other things, I've snapped two paddles bracing, and also had the boat stripped off my body on one occasion.