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#1853 - 09/03/09 01:07 PM Ideas for truly fast kayaks.
NYCmitch25 Offline
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
Hi,
I'm new'ish to Kayaking and have a WONDERFUL nimble P&H Sorpio LV Kayak. I like how it's relatively light at 50lbs (55lbs with everything), handles very well, feels well connected and so forth.

I'm now looking for a Kayak which has the least drag over that coveted 4.5knots range. I'm ready to buy a larger kayak around 18-20' and was wondering if anyone has used the following Sea Kayaks or recommends a brand I look into?:

Valley Sea Kayak - Rapier 18 or Rapier 20
Skim - Distance 19
Skim - Dex 17
QCC - Q700x 18'
Warren Light Craft (overrated?) - Little Wing 18'


PS> I don't get the Little wing, it seems to have just made the boat more stable while maintaining good speed and not really have reduced drag... looks really nice though..

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#1854 - 09/03/09 01:07 PM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: NYCmitch25]
NYCmitch25 Offline
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
~M

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#1872 - 09/07/09 08:41 AM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: NYCmitch25]
magooch Offline
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Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
mitch, if you've read very many of the posts on this website, I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but you asked, so here goes: I found myself looking for a fast, but comortable and seaworthy craft and after a lot of looking, I bought an NC Expedition. This boat is 19'-2" long and in my opinion, it just don't get any better.

There are a few longer and certainly skinnier boats out there, but non are going to do the job any better and look as good doing it. To be honest, it took me a while to get used to this boat, but once you've experienced what this boat is capable of, it's hard to imagine being satisfied with anything else. It's not a play boat; it's meant for racking up serious miles in whatever kind of conditions Neptune can conjure up. nckayaks.com

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#1874 - 09/07/09 12:20 PM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: magooch]
MikeH Offline
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Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Springfield, IL
Mitch,
Here is a link to a test of the Little Wing 18 in a Norwegian magazine: http://www.scandickajakk.com. During the test they found the top speed was 7 knots and the cruising speed was 4.8 knots. I paddle a Little Wing 12.5, and I would agree with your comments that. "it seems to have just made the boat more stable while maintaining good speed and not really have reduced drag... looks really nice though..". The 36-Lb weight is not bad either for an 18-footer. I would agree that there may be better boats for your purposes.

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#1878 - 09/08/09 03:39 AM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: MikeH]
smollet Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 7
the QCC 700x can really move, and haul a ton. Seats are junk though

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#1884 - 09/08/09 02:54 PM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: magooch]
NYCmitch25 Offline
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
"Magooch",

Honestly, NC 19 looks like a fantastic Kayak but nothing (other than size) lends it to the idea that it's truly a fast kayak. It's 24" wide, and has a starting passenger weight of 190lbs. I would charactorize this hull more for a casual to semi-serious kayaker who wants a good swiss army knife of Kayaks. Though I'm sure being 19' long it has a good chance of keeping a good pace, however, I can't find any technical data to confirm or deny that claim.


PS> whats with their website ? Kind of cheapish IMHO.

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#1885 - 09/08/09 03:27 PM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: MikeH]
NYCmitch25 Offline
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
 Originally Posted By: MikeH
Mitch,
Here is a link to a test of the Little Wing 18 in a Norwegian magazine: http://www.scandickajakk.com. During the test they found the top speed was 7 knots and the cruising speed was 4.8 knots. I paddle a Little Wing 12.5, and I would agree with your comments that. "it seems to have just made the boat more stable while maintaining good speed and not really have reduced drag... looks really nice though..". The 36-Lb weight is not bad either for an 18-footer. I would agree that there may be better boats for your purposes.


Hey, Thanks for your comments....

.... you've made a comment about weight, from what I've come to understand about boat hulls, weight isn't as important as it may seem in terms of speed. In particular, Kayaks weighing 10-15 lbs apart will not improve overall speed, though it will carry less momentum and seem to take off quicker I suppose. I could go into the science of it but basically it's about the wetted surface not changing all that much to make a serious difference.

In terms of speed, 7 knots is quite good I suppose, I'm a beginner who has some upper body strength and found that I could push my P&H only 6knots for any extended period of time. Though i wonder about my Kayak's ability because it was so easy to use a slower speeds (usually indicating a different cruising hull style)...

Would be interesting to see how the Little Wing 18 could do..

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#1886 - 09/08/09 03:29 PM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: smollet]
NYCmitch25 Offline
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
 Originally Posted By: smollet
the QCC 700x can really move, and haul a ton. Seats are junk though


Can you go into detail ? I was actually seriously considering this Kayak... The dominant complaint I saw was that the hatches didn't keep things 100% dry...

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#1894 - 09/09/09 07:53 AM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: NYCmitch25]
magooch Offline
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Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
Mitch, that business about the NC Expedition having a starting "passenger" weight of 190 lbs. has me baffled. I don't weigh that much--even with my clothes on. But I don't carry any passengers along if I can help it.

Saying that a boat has nothing but size (length) to suggest that it might be fast is like saying that a car with a 500 hp engine has little else to suggest that it might be fast. Of course there are many other design factors involved in determining a boats potential velocity. If you ever get a chance to look at the hull design on an NC, you will see why they are fast.

If ultimate top speed were the only criteria for a proper kayak, I guess anyone could design a good one. My preference is for a boat that is fast, comfortable, seaworthy, stable, dry, tracks, and isn't much affected by wind and current. Oh, and is light enough to carry on my shoulder, beautiful in design and workmanship....

There I go again. I just can't help it.

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#1896 - 09/09/09 08:44 AM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: NYCmitch25]
MikeH Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Springfield, IL
Mitch,

I want to make sure that you did not misinterpret my comemnts about the speed of the Little Wing 18 or the effect of its light weight.

I would guess that the Norwegian testers of the LW18 could maintain 7 knots for only a few minutes at most. They said 7 knots was the top speed and that they cruised at 4.8 knots. Other paddlers have found the speed of the LW18 to be in the same range as the QCC 700 and the Epic kayaks. You may have unrealistic expectations of a cruising speed that can be maintained for any length of time.

As far as I know, differences in weights of kayaks do not affect their long-distance cruising speeds. Light weight results in faster acceleration and more responsive handling given the same hull shape. I primarily like the light weight of my LW12.5 (22 Lbs) for the way it responds to paddler input and the ease of carrying it to an from my launch site. It is a real joy to both paddle and transport.

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#1897 - 09/09/09 03:55 PM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: magooch]
NYCmitch25 Offline
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Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
 Originally Posted By: magooch
Mitch, that business about the NC Expedition having a starting "passenger" weight of 190 lbs. has me baffled. I don't weigh that much--even with my clothes on. But I don't carry any passengers along if I can help it.

Saying that a boat has nothing but size (length) to suggest that it might be fast is like saying that a car with a 500 hp engine has little else to suggest that it might be fast. Of course there are many other design factors involved in determining a boats potential velocity. If you ever get a chance to look at the hull design on an NC, you will see why they are fast.

If ultimate top speed were the only criteria for a proper kayak, I guess anyone could design a good one. My preference is for a boat that is fast, comfortable, seaworthy, stable, dry, tracks, and isn't much affected by wind and current. Oh, and is light enough to carry on my shoulder, beautiful in design and workmanship....

There I go again. I just can't help it.


I'm not sure why you are "baffled", I'm just suggesting that a boat designed for someone a bit heavier than me is not going to be the fastest design for me PERHAPS. "The NC19 best fits paddlers measuring 5'6"- 6'8" weighing between 190-350 lbs. with up to a size 15½ shoe." -novuscomposites.com.

I also go on to state that the NC19 is a great boat because of it's usability. I also notice that they offer a TON of colors which is fairly rare..

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#1913 - 09/11/09 08:28 AM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: NYCmitch25]
magooch Offline
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Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
mitch, while almost all the the info on NC's website is very specific and quite accurate, the part about paddlers needing to be 190 to 350 pounds for the Expedition is something they need to modify. There is nothing about the boat that requires one to be of any particular weight. It would be hard to imagine a very small person selecting a boat the size of the Expedition, but it would also be hard for me to contemplate a 6'-6", 350 pounder trying to stuff him, or herself into an Expedition.

If you could have been with me yesterday, I think I could have sold you on why I believe the NC Expedition is without doubt, the boat to have if you are serious about sea kayaking. The wind was pretty strong and the tide was running straight out into the wind. The waves were steep and breaking. I left shore without putting my skirt on, which wasn't too bright, but even without it, I stayed dry.

I ducked into a marina and put my skirt on and then went back out there. For a while I thought it prudent to keep the bow into the wind, but pretty soon I turned around and went surfing. Later, after a little shore break, I decided to go ahead and cross the river to the other side. That meant that I had to expose my beam to those waves. The boat couldn't have cared less; it didn't matter how big the waves got, at no point did I have to even deploy a brace. On the way back across the monster waves, I angled slightly away from the wind. That put the waves on my rear quarter. This for sure is asking for a broach. The boat just flew throught the waves like it was in a race. It never offered a hint of a broach.

I've had the boat in big wave before, but this time I kind of just went for it and didn't even bother to try to be careful. I even purposely just let the boat drift beam to the waves to see what would happen. I think I could have hunkered down in the cockpit and taken a nap. I probably won't purposely put myself into those conitions again, but I'm glad to know that if things deteriorate, the Expedition will get me home safe.

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#1917 - 09/12/09 08:08 AM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: magooch]
Strange_Magic Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 459
Loc: New Jersey
Magooch, your obvious enthusiasm for NC kayaks has led you well beyond simple advocacy into Derek Hutchinson-like certainty: "...the NC Expedition is without doubt, the boat to have if you are serious about sea kayaking". My latest favorite Hutchinsonian utterance comes from some notes in a Canadian paddling journal, 2008: "If you want to paddle successfully, you want a 90-degree feather. I use a 90-degree feather".

Seriously, I think I'm a reasonably serious sea kayaker, but even I don't have an NC Expedition. I'll bet Derek Hutchinson doesn't have one either.

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#1918 - 09/12/09 09:02 AM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: Strange_Magic]
magooch Offline
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Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
Well, I happen to have one of Derek's designs and I could write about it too, but haven't got the time right now. I'm headed for the water and another fabulous day in the Expedition.

Gee, I thought I was having some success in paddling, but I hardly ever use a 90 degree feather. Oh well.

You and Derek should give NC a try. Just kidding, but you can't really fault a guy for being enthusiastic about what turns him on.

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#1922 - 09/15/09 09:24 AM Re: Ideas for truly fast kayaks. [Re: magooch]
NYCmitch25 Offline
Forum Participant

Registered: 09/03/09
Posts: 84
 Originally Posted By: magooch
mitch, while almost all the the info on NC's website is very specific and quite accurate, the part about paddlers needing to be 190 to 350 pounds for the Expedition is something they need to modify. There is nothing about the boat that requires one to be of any particular weight. It would be hard to imagine a very small person selecting a boat the size of the Expedition, but it would also be hard for me to contemplate a 6'-6", 350 pounder trying to stuff him, or herself into an Expedition.

If you could have been with me yesterday, I think I could have sold you on why I believe the NC Expedition is without doubt, the boat to have if you are serious about sea kayaking. The wind was pretty strong and the tide was running straight out into the wind. The waves were steep and breaking. I left shore without putting my skirt on, which wasn't too bright, but even without it, I stayed dry.

I ducked into a marina and put my skirt on and then went back out there. For a while I thought it prudent to keep the bow into the wind, but pretty soon I turned around and went surfing. Later, after a little shore break, I decided to go ahead and cross the river to the other side. That meant that I had to expose my beam to those waves. The boat couldn't have cared less; it didn't matter how big the waves got, at no point did I have to even deploy a brace. On the way back across the monster waves, I angled slightly away from the wind. That put the waves on my rear quarter. This for sure is asking for a broach. The boat just flew throught the waves like it was in a race. It never offered a hint of a broach.

I've had the boat in big wave before, but this time I kind of just went for it and didn't even bother to try to be careful. I even purposely just let the boat drift beam to the waves to see what would happen. I think I could have hunkered down in the cockpit and taken a nap. I probably won't purposely put myself into those conitions again, but I'm glad to know that if things deteriorate, the Expedition will get me home safe.


Regarding the weight range -
I guess you could assert that they need to modify their website but to me when I see a large (LOA) kayak with a 'full sized' beam, I would think the same thing. They could have easily shaved the beam down to 20-21" IMHO.

Regarding your trip -
Pretty crazy and fun I'm sure :-) . I was out on the hudson river the other day and had 2+' sharp waves slamming into my P&H, with the skeg deployed I was easily able to keep on course.

Though returning with waves and current with me, I was surfing at my fastest rate ever obtained in that kayak (prob 10mph).
The skeg was continually rising out of the water and I was constantly having to control the direction of the boat as I wasn't wanting to go completely in the direction of the waves. Right before I got to the launch ramp, I almost tipped over and used EVERY bit of strength and tilting to save it. I had my inflatable PFD so I would have been more than just a little pissed if it deployed so close to the end of my trip. I can see how a wider boat (BOA) would help a lot but I think my Sorpio LV's biggest limitation was it's length. I can't see increasing the wetted surface for a little more stability, seems unnecessary for what I'm doing with the boat.

PS> You talk about beam but to me that is the width, I refer to the sides as I do with a boat and call it "freeboard". Anyway, thanks for you comments. NC makes a great kayak.

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