the only kayaks made in China for CD are the ones in the Vision series.

magooch wrote:

"I began to wonder if some designers are more concerned with skinny as a status symbol as much as a performance factor."

I begin to wonder if you can make an objective statement about this boatbuilder. This board is littered w. your repetitive posts that NC Kayaks are the best in every category of attribute - speed, stability,tracking, light weight, comfort and even highly opinionated categories like aesthetics.

on the NC website home page they state "our kayaks are fastest in their class" whatever that means. Sounds more like marketing puffery. There is no data to support it other than a statistic based on sprinting speed, which they acknowledge most cannot attain nor sustain.

Any review done by SeaKayaker Magazine has a lot more useful
data in that regard.

A narrow beam is one of a number of factors that makes for a faster hull, but it is a very important factor. Surfskis and the racing kayaks seen in sanctioned events are narrow for a reason. Many are as narrow as 17 or 18 inches. Seakayaks w. beams of 23" are very wide in comparison.They trade speed for stability.

People tend to have emotional attachments to things like boats. That's fine within its sphere. However it is not the basis for an objective recommendation to another kayaker.

What I see on the website for NC Kayaks are unrelentingly wide boats (beam 23")designed for larger paddlers, primarily, based on the weight limits, intended to carry gear. In that regard it's odd that only several models have TWO hatches. Gear haulers generally are not the fastest boats. This is not to knock them, there are tradeoffs for everything.

Most NC models lack full perimeter deck lining. This and having two bulkheaded hatch compartment are highly desirable in full-on seakayaks both for safety and functionality.

Of all the models only one of them is under 50 lbs in their standard glass layup. The others are hardly "lightweight" relative to other fiberglass boats of comparable length.

I was curious about their layups and so read this part of the FAQ section:

http://www.nckayaks.com/faq.php

As for upgrades to a lighter carbon or kevlar layup, the upcharge of $899 is ridiculously inflated. And the statement that "our LT fiberglass layups are within a pound of our carbon/Kevlar kayaks" is pretty much an open admission that they do not know how to work w. these materials. Other manufacturers are able to deliver a weight savings of 4-5 lbs, typically, and for less than half the cost.

The website comments about the inferiority of carbon and kevlar in a boats layup has so many inaccuracies it would require a separate post, but suffice to say that both materials are encased in fiberglass and so UV deterioration is not a factor.

Suffice to say that all damage which penetrates the gel coat will entail repair to protect what lies beneath, be it fiberglass cloth or a hybrid of glass around a core of Kevlar or carbon. Repair is repair - use the right materials and the right methods, and it will come out well.

The statement that kevlar and carbon boats attract water, and so cause the boat to weigh more over time, has not proven to be the case with boats made by other manufacturers.

Perhaps NC Kayaks does not have the knowledge or skill to utilize the newer technologies of making composite boats, e.g. vacuum bagging or vacuum infusion. I do not know since they omit this critical piece of information. A weight savings of about 1 lb in exchange for an upgrade charge of $899 is very unimpressive. I guess in that sense they are doing potential customers a favor by discouraging them from ordering an upgraded layup.

So instead they publish a lot of inaccuracies about materials that other kayak makers (also small to medium sized companies) have been using very successfully for many years in many different models.


Magooch, you may think your continual cheerleading for NC Kayaks illustrates your product loyalty and determination not to "back down" despite the polite suggestions by other posters.

You have your opinions, I have mine.

My opinion is your endless shilling for NC Kayaks is annoying, off point, and in the long run too biased to be helpful to people who come to these forums seeking help.

It also dilutes the value of this board for me. If I want to read posts by other people patting themselves on the back for their choice of boats, there are other boards to visit. But frankly I am tired of wading through stuff like that on those boards and am approaching my limit here.

Ah well, I don't expect that this will yield any reasoned discussion or fruitful result, but I thank anyone who took the time to read it. Have an excellent weekend with time on the water if possible.

Jeez, Katabatic, I told you to take the day off and have a long, relaxing paddle. Hope you feel better after the weekend. I know getting the Epic story wrong really must have stung (I like Chairman Mao, the Great Helmsman's advice to "Learn truth from facts!"), and not believe everything a rep tells you), but why vent your spleen on poor Magooch? Everybody knows his thing about NC kayaks, just like your thing is an obsession with the minutiae of boat specs ad nauseam.

My only question to Katabatic is, have you ever seen an NC other than pictures? Have you paddled one. I have seen the CD Caribou and have paddled it. I'm not knocking it, I'm just suggesting that before you judge a boat, you might want to check it out.

I have had many discussions with the guys at NC about some of the issues you questioned. I too was skeptical about some of their claims. All I can say is that seeing and paddling is believing. And the guys who build NC kayaks learned their craft with composites as Boeing engineers, so I think they know what they're doing. I'm not stuck on any one manufacturer, or design, but I do feel that I am entitled to my opinions as much as anyone else is.

I don't think I have ever seriously stated that NC boats are the best for every type of sea kayaking and in fact I have made a point that they are for straight line cruising; they are not a play boat.

If my posts are too tedious for you, just skip over them. They are not required reading. In any case, I am not going to moderate my enthusiasm for what I believe is a fantastic kayak as I wouldn't expect you to be less obsessed with your boats.

Magooch, just for the record, I don't think my Epic is a fantastic kayak, and I am not obsessed with it--it's just the boat I happen to own and paddle now, and I am pleased with it, after having modified it to better meet my needs. Maybe it's your use of the word "fantastic"....... You did post, "...the NC Expedition is without doubt, the boat to have if you are serious about sea kayaking." So you're right--you didn't actually say that NC boats are the best for every type of sea kayaking; it's just the only boat to have if you are serious about sea kayaking. That IS fantastic!

Okay, I plead guilty to being a shill, enthusiast, fanatic, self appointed whatever. If a person can't be a "cheerleader" for a product that has exceeded every expectation--well it's a sorry world.

After all, this is just a webside where we share our opinions, so I accept Katabatic's opinions for what they are. I know I am more turned on by someone's positive remarks about a given product, but I also appreciate it when someone is brutally honest about a less than satisfactory experience. I try very hard to be objective when I offer an opinion, so if it comes out hyperbolic--so be it.

Magooch, the problem is that you are doing NC Kayaks little or no good at all by your constant over-the-top drum beating for their boats--it's become very near a joke. Think about it.

Just what is it that is over the top? I can't remember everything I've said about NC kayaks, but if I said it, I meant it. That's called an opinion. And it isn't my primary point to be an advocate for NC. I usually only offer my opinion about their boats when someone asks for suggestions either about NC in particular, or for recommendations about a good sea kayak.

If I were manufacturing kayaks, I would much prefer someone express exuberance about my product than to say it's an okay boat that has possible rudder problems.

I really do like my NC a lot and for that matter, I like all of my kayaks, but the Expedition really is very special to me. If the boat falls apart, or lets me down, I might change my mind, but until that happens.... Magic, I'm sorry that you and Katabatic have yet to find a boat that turns you on.

I give up! It's Fantasy versus Reality, and Fantasy clearly wins.

So how do I get used to a thin kayak? I have a CD Solstice and was thinking of a CD Nomad or what used to be called CD Extreme. I rented it and was uncomfortable in it after near an hour. I guess just practice in it more? More time in my Solstice which I have not had all that long? Adjust paddling style in the boat for more stability? thanks

Dog, there's no hurry to get into a narrower boat. A friend of mine who's been paddling longer than I have, owns 7 kayaks, including a CD Solstice, a CD Extreme, and a CD Stratus. What kayak does he use more than all the others combined? The Solstice. I've found that the pleasure of sea kayaking is enjoying the trip itself: the easy, repetitive stroking, the texture of the water, the wildlife, the scenery, the sounds, the smells, your companions, the excitement of new water. The boat is best that least interferes with/most facilitates feeling good on the water. Enjoy your Solstice to the max!

I love the Solstice as it is easy to cruise and relax in when stationary. Seems good in rough as I have been in. But I am looking forward and want to improve my skills. With that said I have a ton more to learn in my Solstice. Now I just want to get the honey in a Solstice so we can cruise better together. Seems many have more than one kayak so thin may be in my future. Happy with CD workmanship, design, and service. Guess I'll rent the Nomad again before the water turns real cold.

Wipe down any keel with a product called "Rain-X" and any boat will go faster!

According to my experience, Epic 18 is the best choice when it comes to fast kayaks. Once you experienced it, you will able to see dramatic increases in speed and performance.