#2629 - 08/20/10 07:09 AM
New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
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Forum Participant
Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 4
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Hello group! I have been up late last night reading as many threads here as I could! I will continue on tonight with the paddling net site. Read some reviews there too though.
We are canoeists, wanting to switch to Kayaking. Also from Ontario.
My future goals are to find a suitable, well fiting and well made Kayak for our particular Kayaking adventures. I have been to several outfitters who keep trying to put us into plastic recreational boats. I don't want to start at the bottom, and I also do not wish to own one boat after another. I want to start out with a boat I can grow into, and love for a long time! Also one I can be proud to own.
We don't intend to be out in the sea's or crossing lake Ontario any time in the nearer future. And with all the ideas in my head, I do not want a boat that is over kill, and might hinder what I intend to do in the nearer future.
We would like to be able to paddle for half a day, full day, or even over night or two. We love Alqonquin and would like a boat that we can comfortably explore for example Canoe lake, or go tripping down Opeongo. This is just to give you an idea of what size of waters we are currently paddling. However a paddle around PEI, around Killbear, Killarny, shorelines of Georgian Bay, are in the not so distant future. As we also want to be able to handle some wind and some waves. I want a boat that will be capable, maneauver well, yet track well, with stability, not just flipping us over. I don't want to come back tired... from a sluggish boat, or awkward boat.
After saying all that..... I needed to ask is a sea Kayak over kill for my needs?
The outfitters try to put us into plastic boats and tell us to stay between 12-14 feet. We tested a 14 foot Swift Saranac and found it so much more responsive and maneauverable then a 12-13foot. This is why I started all my reading. I would much prefer the opinion of you knowledgeable folks, rather then a salesman who may or may not even Kayak.
I am 5 feet tall and 130lbs. I was looking at the Impex Mystic 14 foot, but wondered if it was too narrow for a beginner? Tippy?
Also the Current Designs Willow at 15'6 22 inches wide
Also the Impex Montauk.
My husband is 5'10 tall and 220 lbs. He loved the Saranac, but hasn't yet tested out the longer Kayaks, nor the narrower ones. He felt very stable in the 23.5 width. When searching for a boat for him, and his weight, I was finding that the boats were getting even longer!
But I did search out the Impex Hesper. Thinking it would be comparable to that Saranac 14 Sport.
Also the Impex Diamonte at 16.6ft.
We would like two boats that may keep up with eachother. But I am more competitive and he is more laid back in his paddling techniques.
We would really prefer to stay with the composites, and hopefully under 16.6 feet long. Our Canoe is 17.4, Kevlar and we have a more difficult time putting it in the garage, handling etc. Just want to keep under 16.6 for now.
Thank you for reading and for any help given. This is confusing, yet exciting!
Edited by sherrylyn (08/20/10 07:14 AM)
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#2632 - 08/20/10 09:26 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: sherrylyn]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 03/22/09
Posts: 39
Loc: Springfield, IL
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As a 5'3", 130 Lbs person myself, I think that the Inmpex Mystic and CD Willow would be excellent boats for you, as would several CD Vision series boats - Swift also makes suitable boats for your weight and proposed use. I would definitely look in the 14-15.5-ft length, narrower beam (21-23-inch) composite boat category. Boats in this category will be easy to manage on land and in the water and will be efficient to paddle. Most beginners (and people who sell to them) worry far too much about a narrow boats 'tippiness'. Within 15 minutes to several hours you probably will no longer think about the primary instability (tippiness) of the boat, and the sea kayak shape of the hull (shallow "V" or gently rounded) will have much higher secondary stability in waves - which you could encounter even in the conditions that you described. At the other extreme, many vendors of true sea kayaks seem to think that everyone needs a 17-18-ft boat in order to paddle bigger waves; this is just not true. Smaller paddlers are often more efficient with a shorter, easier handling boat. With a shorter, but true sea kayak, you will have a boat that you can 'grow into' as you develop your kayaking skills. Be aware: if you intend to go on any organized sea kayaking tours in your boats, some tour operators will not let you use a boat of less than 15 feet length as they are afraid that you cannot keep up with the group. However, a smaller paddler in a narrow, efficient, 15-ft or less boat can often keep up with or pass larger paddlers in longer boats.
I would think that your heavier husband would want a sea kayak of basiccally the same overall sea kayak shape, but scaled up a bit. To support his weight, a relatively narrow (up to 24 inches wide) and efficient kayak would need to be 15-16.5-feet long. Impex and CD both make excellent boats in this length range.
The best advice continues to be to paddle any boat that you are considering before you but it, if at all possible. Even paddle boats that you at first do not think you will like - you may be pleasantly surprized.
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#2635 - 08/21/10 06:35 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: MikeH]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
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Very good advice from MikeH. Here's mine: Go for the best built, highest quality boat you can find and the same applies to your paddle.
I could go into a long winded dissertation about the merits of this, or that kind of boat in my opinon, but why not cut to the good stuff. I'll just say take a look at what Novus Composites has to offer. I went through the gamut of trying to find the perfect boat for my interests and in the end, NC built me the boat that continues to answer my dreams in ways that I never...well, that I never dreamed of.
Seriously, go to nckayaks.com and see what they have to offer. Read what they say very carefully, because they describe exactly what their boats can do. If anything, they understate what these fantastic boats are all about.
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#2641 - 08/21/10 11:30 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: magooch]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 460
Loc: New Jersey
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As usual, I'll disagree with Magooch, except for his advice about paddles--get the lightest paddle you can afford.
Regarding boats--virtually no one in sea kayaking ends up paddling the first boat they bought/owned. So, Magooch's advice to go for the best built, highest quality boat you can afford makes no sense for the newcomer to this activity. Much better to cheaply acquire a pre-owned boat of the general size and weight that interests you, and paddle it--a lot!! Get to know sea kayaking and that boat. While doing that, paddle everybody else's boats also. Your paddling goals and abilities will evolve. THEN you'll be able to more intelligently select the "final" boat, the one that will make you most content.
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#2643 - 08/22/10 07:39 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: Strange_Magic]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
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Well I'm going to have to disagree with you, Magic. There is a lot more to paddles than just the weight and you know it. Of course the weight is very important, but so is the length, shape, type and so on. What a person can afford is an unknown. I think most paddlers change their minds as they go along about what is affordable and what is essential.
I'm not going to agree either about trying other peoples boats. Do you try out your friends cars when you're looking for a new one? I have let a couple of relatives try out one of my recreational kayaks, but no one--no one gets in my sea kayaks, but me. I've seen too many klutzes do things to demo kayaks that just makes me cringe.
The lady stated that she had no desire to go through a series of boats on her way to the ultimate boat. Maybe not in those words, but that was what I took from what she said. So that is why I advised her to look at the good stuff. Starting with the right boat can make all the differnce in the enthusiasm and satisfaction one attains from kayaking. I guess I'm the exception to the rule, because I still have all the boats I've bought and I still enjoy all of them.
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#2645 - 08/22/10 11:25 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: magooch]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 460
Loc: New Jersey
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Magooch, now you're reaching. Are you telling people to buy the lightest paddle they can't afford? Are you telling people to not try other paddlers' boats? And nobody starts with the "right boat"--if you're a brand-new kayaker, how do you know what is the right boat? Trying other people's boats is one way to expand one's universe of potential boats and boat types.
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#2647 - 08/22/10 03:10 PM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: Strange_Magic]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 33
Loc: Akron, OH
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I'd tend to go with Mike on this. I would suggest skipping over the Mystic if you plan any over night trips. That's a very small boat and gear storage will be an issue. The Montauk might be a better choice... assuming it fits you ok. Impex kayaks are very nice. You will just have to get yourself to a dealer and try some out. This is my third summer kayaking. I went for an Eddyline Fathom LV and have now taken it on three extended trips (twice in Georgian Bay. It just barely has enough room for all my junk. BTW I'm 5'6" and about 145 and the Fathom is a great fit. But maybe Magic has a point 'cause I really want to try a Tiderace Exite S out 
_________________________
Byron
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#2652 - 08/24/10 07:11 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: Strange_Magic]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
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Magooch, now you're reaching. Are you telling people to buy the lightest paddle they can't afford? Are you telling people to not try other paddlers' boats? And nobody starts with the "right boat"--if you're a brand-new kayaker, how do you know what is the right boat? Trying other people's boats is one way to expand one's universe of potential boats and boat types. No, Magic, I'm saying that people sometimes adjust their thinking as they go along and what they once thought was too expensive doesn't seem to be beyond the budget when the virtues of this, or that piece of equipment becomes known. I'm also saying that I would never ask another person if I could try out their boat. If they invited me to try it out, I might consider it. I guess it probably depends on how well you actually know the person. But then there are people who I know very well enough, but I still wouldn't let them demo my boats.
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#2657 - 08/26/10 09:17 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: magooch]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 4
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Hello everyone. Thank you to all who have replied. I wanted to update to say that we bought an impex Diamante 16.6 foot for my husband. At 22.5 wide. He loves the boat. I can paddle it, but think that I would like something a little more "snug" in the cockpit area. I am 5 feet, and 130 lbs. I am trying to find a Montauk. I am thinking that this boat would keep up with my husbands without a real problem. I think that the mystic would be too short... after buying the first one. Also I kept in mind what the poster up above mentioned. Having to need a longer boat for kayaking adventures etc. Although I do have a few others in mind. But very similar. I looked at the NC page, and loved what they had to say. However, being from Ontario, Canada I didn't find any manufacturer around here. I don't want to get one shipped. I would prefer to test paddle, and also if there were warranty issues. I am now looking into paddles. I am thinking of going into the werner paddles. Buying two different paddles. Both my husband and myself can play with. One likely being 210cm, the other 215 or 220cm. There are just so many models in the werners line, its going to be tough! Thanks again everyone! And I am still here reading your replies and appreciating all of them! P.S Anyone know of an impex Montauk for sale in Ontario? (Don't know if there is a boats forsale/wanted category on here yet!
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#2658 - 08/26/10 09:23 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: sherrylyn]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 4
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Byron:
Where did you get your Eddyline Fathom LV? I didn't find dealers around Ontario for that one either. It also sounds great, and would be a great choice.
Sherrylyn
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#2660 - 08/26/10 11:11 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: sherrylyn]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 21
Loc: Ont, Canada
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Hello group! I have been up late last night reading as many threads here as I could! I will continue on tonight with the paddling net site. Read some reviews there too though.
We are canoeists, wanting to switch to Kayaking. Also from Ontario.
My future goals are to find a suitable, well fiting and well made Kayak for our particular Kayaking adventures. I have been to several outfitters who keep trying to put us into plastic recreational boats. I don't want to start at the bottom, and I also do not wish to own one boat after another. I want to start out with a boat I can grow into, and love for a long time! Also one I can be proud to own.
We don't intend to be out in the sea's or crossing lake Ontario any time in the nearer future. And with all the ideas in my head, I do not want a boat that is over kill, and might hinder what I intend to do in the nearer future.
We would like to be able to paddle for half a day, full day, or even over night or two. We love Alqonquin and would like a boat that we can comfortably explore for example Canoe lake, or go tripping down Opeongo. This is just to give you an idea of what size of waters we are currently paddling. However a paddle around PEI, around Killbear, Killarny, shorelines of Georgian Bay, are in the not so distant future. As we also want to be able to handle some wind and some waves. I want a boat that will be capable, maneauver well, yet track well, with stability, not just flipping us over. I don't want to come back tired... from a sluggish boat, or awkward boat.
After saying all that..... I needed to ask is a sea Kayak over kill for my needs?
The outfitters try to put us into plastic boats and tell us to stay between 12-14 feet. We tested a 14 foot Swift Saranac and found it so much more responsive and maneauverable then a 12-13foot. This is why I started all my reading. I would much prefer the opinion of you knowledgeable folks, rather then a salesman who may or may not even Kayak.
I am 5 feet tall and 130lbs. I was looking at the Impex Mystic 14 foot, but wondered if it was too narrow for a beginner? Tippy?
Also the Current Designs Willow at 15'6 22 inches wide
Also the Impex Montauk.
My husband is 5'10 tall and 220 lbs. He loved the Saranac, but hasn't yet tested out the longer Kayaks, nor the narrower ones. He felt very stable in the 23.5 width. When searching for a boat for him, and his weight, I was finding that the boats were getting even longer!
But I did search out the Impex Hesper. Thinking it would be comparable to that Saranac 14 Sport.
Also the Impex Diamonte at 16.6ft.
We would like two boats that may keep up with eachother. But I am more competitive and he is more laid back in his paddling techniques.
We would really prefer to stay with the composites, and hopefully under 16.6 feet long. Our Canoe is 17.4, Kevlar and we have a more difficult time putting it in the garage, handling etc. Just want to keep under 16.6 for now.
Thank you for reading and for any help given. This is confusing, yet exciting! For yourself, I would recomend a Widerness Systems Tempest or Tempest pro. This boat is built for a smaller paddler like you. Bought the Tempest pro for my wife this summer and she loves it. For your hubby, a Delta Thermofoam boat would be a good choice. They make a 15, 16, 17, and 18.5 foot versions. Both these boats are life long boats that are perfect for all your needs and condtions you describe. My friend and I just finished a week on Georgian Bay in our two Delta Boats, the 17 and the 18.5. Perfect for the rough stuff in the open waters and fast and sleek in the calm stuff. Delta Boats linkhttp://frontenac-outfitters.com/kayaks/makepage.cfm?ID=59Widerness Systems Tempest Pro 16.6http://frontenac-outfitters.com/kayaks/one_boat.cfm?ID=462
_________________________
Dave
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#2661 - 08/26/10 07:10 PM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: Tenbears]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 4
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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The read up on that Tempest pro sounds great. I even compared that to the Montauk. The biggest different being, Tempest has a hard chine? Montauk a soft chine. Haven't paddled a hard chine before. Heard there are a few differences in their predictability?
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#2662 - 08/27/10 08:54 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: sherrylyn]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 33
Loc: Akron, OH
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Byron:
Where did you get your Eddyline Fathom LV? I didn't find dealers around Ontario for that one either. It also sounds great, and would be a great choice.
Sherrylyn Sherrylyn, I went to Ashville, NY (Evergreen Outfitters). It was a three hour drive for me. Virtually any 'real' kayak shop is three hours or better (I live near Cleveland Ohio). As for the Fathom LV, I wouldn't recommend it for you as the coaming on this boat is pretty high. You might have a time of it trying to not knock your knuckles on the front deck when paddling... vertical stroke needed for sure. Because of your height, you will most certainly want to be aware of this when sizing kayaks. Also you will be unlikely to be ever able to lay out on the back deck (although that might not be important to you). ...and speaking of kayak shopping, I just happened to drop in at Evergreen yesterday and they had the new thermoformed Rockpool Alaw Bach. This boat is built by Eddyline for Rockpool and shows Eddyline's usual high quality construction. But the Alaw, unlike the Fathom has a very low back deck. I can stretch out flat on it. So next week I'm probably trading in my Fathom for the demo Bach. With the Rockpool I'll be able to stretch out and nap during extended trips
_________________________
Byron
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#2664 - 08/28/10 07:46 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: Byron]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
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Hi Byron,
Before you make the jump to the Rockpool by Eddyline, be sure that you give the boat a thorough tryout. The things it was designed to do, it does very well, but if you plan to push the boat a bit, you might want to compare how easily it paddles to your present boat.
I'm not saying the boat is slow, but it definitely seems to squat in the stern when you pick up the pace. It felt like it hits a wall and the effort to keep it cooking is considerable. By comparison, the Fathom felt like it took less effort to maintain a faster pace. And don't take that to mean that I thought the Fathom was actually faster just didn't seem to take as much effort.
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#2665 - 08/28/10 01:27 PM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: magooch]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 33
Loc: Akron, OH
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Hi Byron,
Before you make the jump to the Rockpool by Eddyline, be sure that you give the boat a thorough tryout. The things it was designed to do, it does very well, but if you plan to push the boat a bit, you might want to compare how easily it paddles to your present boat.
I'm not saying the boat is slow, but it definitely seems to squat in the stern when you pick up the pace. It felt like it hits a wall and the effort to keep it cooking is considerable. By comparison, the Fathom felt like it took less effort to maintain a faster pace. And don't take that to mean that I thought the Fathom was actually faster just didn't seem to take as much effort. Good points... I have a GPS but I never bother to check my speed with the Fathom as that just seems a little too anal and besides the point. Anyhow with the Fathom LV I seem to hit that wall (or hull speed) that you mention at what seems to be a modest clip. I would certainly expect the RockPool to be quicker but then without making measurements, who knows? So maybe this Tuesday I will take out my trusty GPS and measure my cruising and max speeds with both boats. And maybe that stern squat you mention is something that could be adjusted by moving the seat a little forward? One thing that gets me with the Fathom and the relatively high coaming is that water pools in my spray skirt around my waist and is pretty annoying... it also tends to work into the cockpit (Seals Extreme Tour neoprene with a breathable waist section). After around 10 to 15 rolls I had to stop and use the pump before continuing. I suspect that the lower fit of the RP may help prevent that. Anyhow, if I do bother to get out the GPS, I'll report back with the numbers. Oh, also Evergreen is planning on carrying TideRace, which carries on the RockPool DNA. But I do like thermoformed materials for kayak construction. It's really nice to not be concerned over the occasional rock encounter. The Fathom hull has 'kissed' many bits of Canadian shield over the past couple of years and is none the worse for it.
_________________________
Byron
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#2666 - 08/29/10 07:05 AM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: Byron]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
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Well Byron, the Eddyline Rockpool should be the boat for bouncing off of rocks. I was told that the bottom of the hull is 3/16" thick, or was it 3/8"...Nah. I should have paid closer attention. Anyway, I almost went into shock when the factory rep literally jumped on and then stomped all over the deck of the Rockpool from one end to the other. The boat twisted and bent, but popped right back into shape. That treatment would have pretty much destroyed most composite boats and probably would have messed up most poly boats.
That said, I still believe that a composite boat is awfully hard to beat for overall performance and satisfaction. As P&H asserts, "There is just something about a composite boat."
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#2667 - 08/29/10 12:23 PM
Re: New To Kayaking Small Sea Kayak over kill for me?
[Re: magooch]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 33
Loc: Akron, OH
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...As P&H asserts, "There is just something about a composite boat." Yeah, and there's just something about head lice too  Seriously, I've been up to Georgian Bay twice now for trips and that's a great place for RM and thermoformed materials. The people with nice glassed boats were really trying to tiptoe through the gneiss. Those boats were magnets for quartz outcroppings. But since thermoformed kayaks are kinda like real big water bottles, who cares if there's a scuff or two? Actually it adds character... Over and out for now...
_________________________
Byron
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#2798 - 09/23/10 11:54 AM
Re: hey sherrylyn
[Re: Byron]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 122
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if you are still reading/looking:
At 5' tall, You are an extremely petite paddler. Pls. don't go for a boat like the Tempest or even the Montauk. They are both too big in the cockpit for you (too deep). Kayaks as you now know are supposed to be "worn" not loose like a canoe. If you can't get the right fit, you won't have the right connection w. your boat... and it will be harder to paddle and even harder to do some particular skills (edging, bracing, rolling if you want to go there)
Keep the Mystic on your list. It was MADE for a person your size... and since you want to to overnights occasionally, with a partner probably, it will have plenty of room for that.
Keep the Willow on your list.
Add the Avocet LV - again, perfectly sized for you. In fact this and the Mystic would be my top two recommendations for you to demo.
Add the composite Necky Eliza (NOT the plastic version, totally different boat in dimension and performance)
Happy shopping!
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#2805 - 09/24/10 07:57 AM
Re: hey sherrylyn
[Re: Katabatic]
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Forum Participant
Registered: 02/18/07
Posts: 638
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Hey, and while you're adding boats to your list, take a very close and special look at a Novus Composite 15'-8" model. They come in different versions, but they are all top of the line in value, quality, performance, looks and comfort.
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