: but I have been looking into some material called Dyneema®

Same material as Spectra but is the Dutch name for it. A friend and I have both broken SS cables but not Spectra/Dyneema®. Wire fatigues, Spectra doesn't and there should be a covering that wears or chafes off long before the cable should break.

Alex

I park at Gene Coulon park. It is at the very South end of the lake and has great secure easy parking close to the water. you have to be out of the park by 8pm though. This is in Renton right next to I-405 and is patrolled regularly by the Renton police. I have never had a problem there.

I just purchased some Dyneema line from West Marine.

7/64" AmSteel-Blue Dyneema Single Braid, 1600lb. Breaking Strength.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/sto...;classNum=10234

It should be here in the next few days and I will see how it works. The line that is on the Epic right now looks a little weak, and this Dyneema looks really strong. I dont want to take any chances out there when I am on a multiday.

Dyneema has a slightly different molecular structure than spectra and higher breaking strength in the larger diameters. It displays slightly better wear characteristics in heavy use areas, but has more elasticity than Honeywell's Spectra 1000. This fiber is popular in Europe and is gaining popularity in the states. Examples of cordage containing Dyneema: Amsteel Blue, Warpspeed, Superbraid, Ultrex, LOUPS.

Talking of strength, I have been using 2 mm diameter for over a decade. I originally supplied rudders with 3 mm (~1/8") but that is over-kill.

7/64" works out for me at 2.7 mm.

The first Mac50, built over a decade ago by my partner, still has the original rudder lines as does my other kayak which is a year younger. What hasn't been mentioned is where others have had breaks or wear with Spectra lines.

Alex

My understanding of the problems that other owners have had with the Spectra rudder lines is that the culprit is chafing of the line, not breakage due to excessive tensile force. The Epic rudder/footpedal/footrest system weaves the Spectra through a hole in the pedal, then out of sight behind the footboard, where somehow slack is either taken up or let out when the footboard/footpedal assembly is moved forward or back. One cannot see the path that the Spectra takes, once it's behind the footboard, but it is probably convoluted, with opportunities to chafe in various places. Like Nhk, I chose not to risk any possibility of rudder failure, and replaced my Spectra, but with stainless. I've never had a moment's problem with stainless on my other boats, with 15 years in place on my previous boat. But I'm pretty sure that stainless can't be threaded through the Epic system like Spectra or Dyneema, so I gave up the ability to move the footpedal/footrest assembly easily forward or back. But my confidence in the stainless is very high.

It sounds like the system that one of our paddlers showed us back about 1992 and is used by a few manufacturers here.

It allows the rudder pedals to be adjusted without the need to adjust the rudder lines. As our own kayaks don't usually need pedal adjustment, but use that system, it means we have it right as we don't have chafe problems though the wear point is always the same.

The absolutely critical part of the path is the line needs to go round the hinge pin or round something in line with the pin so that there is no rubbing where the line goes through the hole in the pedal. It is all a matter of geometry.

You can look at the DIY part of -

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/grantglazer/Kayak/

Also -

http://sites.google.com/site/kayakamf/kayakrudders

This shows the path. We had a manufacturer here who couldn't get the message and blamed the system.

It sounds like who ever designed the Epic pedals missed the point.

And no, wire won't work as the bends are too tight.

Alex

The actual page is -

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/grantglazer/Kayak/HintsSandyRudderPedal.htm

Note that our pedals are "full-foot" pedals, that is they are the size of your foot with the hinge about level with the ankle. If you move your foot you will see that the heel comes back as the toes go forward.

The rudderlines can be set so that there isn't actually any pressure on the line so the rudder sets up in a neutral position (minimum drag) and moving a foot/toe forward kicks in enough rudder to do a course correction.

Alex

Alex, thanks for providing the info. I think I'll do a little more research into how the Epic system works, just to satisfy my curiosity.

It's now 2 years and 2 months since I bought my Epic 16X. I continue to be extraordinarily pleased, over and over, with the boat as a companion for the sort of paddling I do. It is lightweight, making it easy to get on and off the roof racks and onto the water. The combination of light weight and hull design makes the boat fast and easy to paddle, so I can easily keep up with or even outrun my paddling partners. The boat doesn't weathercock, is relatively stable, and behaves very well in a seaway. As I've outlined in previous posts, I've made some modifications: reworked the straps that hold the hatches closed (these have been replaced by cams on the newer boats); replaced the bungees with stronger, thicker ones; replaced the Spectra rudder cords with stainless; reworked the architecture of the foot pedals. I've also filled the articulated-stern rudder with spray-in minicell foam to eliminate a leaking problem thru the bolt-hole that holds the rudder to the boat, and have twice epoxied the rail that the seat slides on back onto the hull interior. I've made these various changes and repairs with a cheerful, positive attitude that I'm making a fine boat even better--my history with the four kayaks I've had now includes building two of them (wood) and custom-fitting them out, and extensively "revising" the two store-bought fiberglass boats, the Dirigo 17 and this Epic 16X, to suit my requirements for a very personal boat/companion. Paddlers who cannot imagine themselves fiddling around and tinkering with a kayak in this manner should bear this in mind when they evaluate my analysis of the Epic. But they should recall that Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky are primarily racers and are interested, first and foremost, in making boats that are light and fast; they are not recreational paddlers. But paddlers should also recall that Freya Hoffmeister circled Australia and is circling South America in an Epic, and that says a lot about the positive qualities of the Epics. I am almost always paddling mine with a big smile on my face!

Freya Hoffmeister also had a problem with her Epic due to quality of the hull if I remember correctly. She had a specially built boat also for the journey. I would be worried about a production boat in that case. If I had to change that much on a 2 year old kayak I would not be happy. That is just my personal opinion.

Doing the things below seems more like a redesign for design problems than personalizing the kayak. Your kayak is not a race boat as far as I know. I can see a super light weigh race boat not taking abuse because it is purpose built. My friend has a new Epic surfski I hope to paddle this winter.

Just my opinion.

"I've made some modifications: reworked the straps that hold the hatches closed (these have been replaced by cams on the newer boats); replaced the bungees with stronger, thicker ones; replaced the Spectra rudder cords with stainless; reworked the architecture of the foot pedals. I've also filled the articulated-stern rudder with spray-in minicell foam to eliminate a leaking problem thru the bolt-hole that holds the rudder to the boat, and have twice epoxied the rail that the seat slides on back onto the hull interior."

Dog, your reaction is totally understandable--the Epic is a boat that required the modifications that I made in order for me to maximize my pleasure and satisfaction in paddling it. In one or more of my previous posts, I suggested that Epic consider hanging a traditional rudder off the stern, etc., etc. None of these suggestions are new. My boat now is exactly where I want it to be, because I was prepared to make the changes to it that I have. There is no way that I would expect large numbers (or even small numbers) of today's kayak purchasers to become so personally involved in altering their boats. My interest here (like the experience with my Dirigo) is to offer a candid warts-and-all discussion of my experiences with an unusual sea kayak--its strengths and weaknesses. I think it may be more useful than the nonsense one encounters routinely on some other kayaking websites wherein happy owners tell you endlessly how wonderful their boats are (until they sell them in order to buy an even more wonderful boat).

I don't recall Freya having a problem with her first boat's hull; I know she started with a stock boat because her custom boat wasn't ready, then switched when the custom boat became available. Anybody know more? And my point about Barton and Chalupsky being racers was not that the 18X and the 16X are racing boats--they're not--but that they are the kind of boats that one would expect that racers unfamiliar with recreational kayaking would design.

Hi, I'm new to the forum and saw you chatting on the 16x. I just got a second hand 18x and it goes well on flatwater, I covered on the garmin 7.5km (4.7 miles) in 42'53" avg 10.5km/h or 6.6mph. There is a clip on YouTube of a guy taking it all out...,

It's now closing on 4 years paddling my Epic 16X, and I am happy to report that my enjoyment with the boat is perhaps even greater now, as my experience with it has increased. It is important to note that the modifications that I made to my boat, as detailed in previous posts here, are an essential part of why the kayak continues to please me so much. I am also happy that there is another source of a great deal of hands-on information on both the 16X and the Epic 18X Sport (and the 18X) on an excellent Dutch website hosted by Rene van der Zwan: http://home.tiscali.nl/~bahefa30/. Rene's extensive test-paddling of these Epics has revealed both the strengths and the weaknesses of the boats and essentially corroborate what I've found in my experience. Rene's problems with positioning his feet on the footpedals while his legs are splayed can be solved by my porcelain knob add-on, but this is a condition that Epic can fix easily. Rene also, though, finds corrosion and several other problems with the unique Epic rudder system, some of which I've discussed here--that, in my opinion, can only be solved by Epic reverting to a standard over-the-stern rudder. But, in any case, I highly recommend anybody interested in getting one of these boats look at Rene's site also. De Zeekajaksite