As I've reported, my two previous kayaks (Dirigo 17 and custom CLC Patuxent) are with their new owners, who report themselves very pleased with them. I paddled the Patuxent (17' long, 22" beam, hard chines) most of the year, and the Dirigo (17' long, 26" beam) during drysuit season. Both boats, though, were getting to be Very Heavy, and my goal was to replace them with a single craft. I was looking for a shorter, lighter, hard-chine boat with a rudder, and a slightly wider beam than 22" for the increased stability it would provide for cold-water winter paddling.

After trying several boats, I test-paddled the Epic 16X extensively twice, then bought it. It answers all the above requirements except for a hard-chine hull. The 2008 SK review of the Epic 18X, the boat Freya H. is paddling around Australia, pretty much covers all the bases for the 16X, but here are a few additional comments--

SK is right about the comfort and utility of the seat and the rudder foot controls; it is the most comfortable seat I've yet been in, and the rudder controls/footrest combo is unique and perfectly fulfills the tasks of providing a rigid anchor for the feet and also can't-go-wrong rudder control. The sliding seat can be moved front-and-back to get optimum seat-pedal distance if/when you switch from legs-splayed to legs-together/knees up posture.

I use kayak rudders as variable-azimuth skegs on open water, and only steer with the rudder in narrow, twisting saltmarsh channels. The Epic articulated-stern rudder is very good for this sort of paddling. There is still a question as to whether the rudder is deep enough in the water for boat control in steep following seas; Epic is reportedly working on a retrofit rudder. I've not yet had a problem. Another cause for attention is the possible fragility of the rudder itself, in that it does not flip up out of harm's way when not in use--the rudder is always deployed, so you have to be careful of grinding against rocks, etc. when coming ashore. I've already altered my coming-ashore routine to favor the rudder, and I tie it up with a spacer between the rudder and the hull stern when transporting the boat.

The Epic 16X handles very well in a seaway, in busy chop, in crosswinds (no weathercocking in winds that always induced weathercocking in my two other boats). It surfs chop cleanly, and, due to its light weight and acceleration, I can jump from wave to wave more easily than in my Patuxent. It has a higher maintainable top speed also, so I can easily catch up with my paddling partners (Nordkapp and Caribou, usually) if I fall behind while looking at birds or whatever. And monster cargo-carrying space is available.

Workmanship has been an issue with some Epic boats. They've either solved the problem, or are now hyperinspecting their boats. I went over my boat with a fine-tooth comb prior to purchase, and the finish is exemplary. I've replaced the wimpy deck bungees with thicker ones.

I don't know what Epic had in mind when they designed the 16X--the 18X is clearly a go-fast boat that seems to be doing just fine around Australia (so far). But it's working out very well for me as a touring/exploring boat that's stable, easy to get on/off the Forester roof, load up with stuff, surf chop, paddle all day in all kinds of water and wind, and keep up with or outrun my paddling partners. It's not perfect, but, for me, it's close to perfect. And, it doesn't look like everybody else's boat.

I like the review, thanks for sharing... Just curious, have you pushed the boat to it's limit in a sprint, and perhaps figured out what you think it's limit is with GPS ? Also, is it really only available in white or something?

Mitch, I've had the boat at sprint speed a couple of times, but I don't have a clue as to how fast I was going (no GPS). The kayak is for "touring paddlers" (that's me) in the Epic literature, offering "a unique combination or stability, maneuverability and speed". I was out with the 16X today, under the most severe conditions I've yet had it in--15-knot SSW wind, with gusts to 20 knots (anemometer). Handled just fine, no weathercocking at all, reasonable progress into the wind, then fine surfing on the return run. Just running downwind with my paddle across my shoulders to catch the wind was about the fastest I've run downwind yet. Had to be ready to brace, though, as conditions were squirrelly, but the windsurfers and kite board sailors were out in full force (Barnegat Bay, NJ).

Colors: the hull comes only in white, but you have a choice of red (me), yellow, or white deck.

Thanks for responding, I like this review a lot because it answers a lot of questions asked about this boat. Currently I have a nice plastic er I mean "Corelite" P&H which is nice but I'm thinking of Epic as my next boat.

Mitch, some more thoughts on the Epic: if they asked me, I'd tell Epic to replace the three-quarter-inch webbing that secures the two hatch covers with full one-inch webbing and also maybe re-think the buckle system that secures the hatch covers--like going with 3 straps for the big rear hatch cover. There is also some leakage into the compartments when big water or rain is heavy. No boat is perfect. But the more I paddle my 16X, the happier I am with it.

Thanks for the reply. I noticed that in Freya H.'s 'epic' adventure, one of her hatches had the rubber pull off style. not sure what that is about ..

http://www.epickayaks.net.au/images/freya/2009_011freya071.jpg

Mitch, there is molding on the right rear deck of the Epics where a day hatch was perhaps planned, but then cancelled. Freya and Epic had agreed on a customized 18X for her Australia trip, but it hadn't been ready in time for the launch, so she started with a stock 18X. About halfway around, the custom boat replaced the stock boat, and I'm guessing that she had asked that the day hatch be installed as part of the custom work. I guess we'll find out sometime what else the custom boat had.

Ah I see... thanks for the info. I'm still considering this boat heavily... Though justifying it is yet another matter... lol

By coincidence, an occasional paddling partner of mine called to ask me about my 16X--he had been up to Maine and paddled an 18X (Ultra layup) and liked it a lot, but wanted to know what I knew. I told him basically all that I've posted here, but warned him that Epic advises care with the Ultra layup, as it's just not as robust as the regular (but still very light) layup. He said he knows about that, and has read every scrap of Epic literature on the kayaks. So, who knows? There may be another Epic on local waters soon. And maybe yet another?? I wouldn't myself get the Ultra layup--too fragile and way too pricey--and the regular layup is pounds lighter than equivalent boats anyway.

Magic, I think your advice is right on. Not that I know anything about composite layups, but I did have a very good conversation with one of the fellas who built my Expedition. He pointed out the pluses and minuses of glass, kevlar and carbon. In their experience, the best bang for the buck is with e-glass cloth and vinylester resin. The weight difference is very slight, but other issues, such as potential repairs and moisture wicking are much better with glass. I mean to say that wicking is much less a problem with glass than with kevlar.

I've come to realize that there is always going to be a compromise between weight and strength, or rigidity. You would probably agree that a glass covered wood boat is hard to beat on those issues, but then there are other aspects that are compromised with that method.

16X Update: I've made two improvements to my 16X that have made a good boat better. First, I had noticed that, in the feet-splayed position, with the knee/thigh braces in use, I did not have the same excellent foot-to-pedal contact that I did when paddling in the knees-together position. I needed a way to bring the pedal surfaces closer to my feet along the pedals' outer, upper corners. Solution--at a hardware store, I bought two porcelain knobs, about 1 and 1/2 inches in diameter and about an inch high, and some neoprene and fiber washers. I drilled a hole in the upper, outer corner of each pedal and installed the knobs. My feet now nicely contact the pedals. Problem totally solved.

Second improvement was to deal with the difficulty (especially in cold, wet weather) of opening up the straps that hold down the hatch covers, and removing the hatches. Solution--bought some 3/4 inch webbing snap-clips, and, using fabric glue and sewing with needle and thread, incorporated the snap-clips into the strapping system that secures the hatch covers. Now I just release the tension on the webbing via the cam locks that are stock on the boat, then unclip the snap-clips. I then just fold back the now-separated webbing and remove the hatch covers. Owners of 16Xs and 18Xs will know exactly what the problem was.

I briefly met Greg Barton at Paddlesport here in Jersey in March, and outlined my suggestions; also my view that Epic needs to beef up the deck bungees. Don't know if my suggestions registered--it was a busy time for all--but here they are again.

My friend who was thinking about getting an 18X, having tried one and having talked to me about my 16X, placed an order for an 18X Sport, in the standard layup. He's a big, strong, hefty guy, and he should be able to make that boat fly. Looking for it in June or maybe July.

HEY! Thanks for the updates!!! Can you post pictures of your changes ? What does your buddy think of his 18X sport... Also what is the "standard layup" I guess I'm unsure of the differences ..

PS> I guess you meant Standard over "Sport" ? Have you tried timing your speed ? Also what kind of paddle are you using ?

Mitch, the Sport is the slightly wider version of the 18X--22 and 3/4th" beam, rather than the 22" beam of the narrower boat. My friend ordered the Sport. He's going with the standard fiberglass layup, not the Ultra layup.

I've no GPS and have never tried timing myself in the 16X; I'm just happy to be able to outrun my usual paddling partners (when I feel like it). Subjectively it seems to crank right along when I really push it.

Thanks,
I'm thinking of selling my current Kayak and get the 18X, do you recommend that ?

I would recommend trying out an 18X, an 18X Sport, and also a 16X. Try before you buy. The Jersey Paddler here in Brick NJ is an Epic dealer--you might call them and whomever else around who handles Epics and find out what boats they have in stock and if you can try them out. The Jersey Paddler will let you try out boats on a nearby pond, under various rules and regulations, etc. Whatever Epic you try, don't mess with the Ultra layup--it's just too fragile for the ordinary kayaker. I'm happy with my 16X--but as I hope I've made perfectly clear by now, it's not perfect; no boat is. I think that people just get too wrapped up in the "What is the Exact Right Boat for Me??" syndrome. The truth is that the boat is one of the least important elements in satisfactory sea kayaking--there have got to be 200 models of roughly 17-foot long, roughly 22-inch beam, pointy-ended kayaks out there. The important thing is what is between the kayaker's ears--does he/she have what it takes to be a safe, effective, knowledgable, skillful, fulfilled paddler in a marine setting? Start with any old boat (this advice is for Sea Voyager), get to know it and how to use it, get to know sea kayaking, and then later finding the "right" boat will be easy.

Mitch, looking at one of your previous posts, I see that I owe you info on what paddle I'm using: I use a 220-cm Swift with the 5-inch wide Wind Swift blades, and I have a duplicate for my spare. Also, I can email you pix of the modifications I've made to the hatch straps (I'm not set up to post them here). So, if you like, send me a PM with your email address.

Carl

My friend's Epic 18X Sport came in this week; we went out on the Bay today so he could get in his first daytrip. Boat is all white, with the new rudder and the new hatches (including now, a day hatch). Epic has somewhat beefed up the deck bungees. The new hatches now eliminate the straps; the hatch covers are held on by rotating cams (4 each hatch); the day hatch cover is hinged and held down by a single cam. My friend can reach just about every place in the interior of the day hatch with the cover open, and says it's easy to open and close the hatch cover. I watched him, and it seems OK. We are both uncertain about the two main hatch covers, with those cams--time will tell.

The new rudder with the retractable skeg inside it looks great and apparently works great too. When the skeg is in its retracted "up" position, the rudder is locked in place dead center. Again, we'll have to see how it works long-term. The cord that operates the skeg is really thin.

The boat looks like a million dollars; my friend loves how it paddles, though he hasn't yet had it out in difficult water (it's good enough for Freya, though). The problem, if it is a problem, is that neither Greg Barton nor Oscar Chalupsky are exploration or recreational paddlers, and so do not approach kayak design with the same attention to things like hatches and deck bungees, etc. that maybe another designer would--they want lightness and speed above all. But my experience so far with my 16X, and I predict my friend's experience will be with his 18X, is that the Epics are just plain great touring boats, no matter what little odds and ends may need adjusting by owners of these boats. Another friend, who is Florida-based, tells me that 16Xs are quite common in his neck of the woods.

Further Epic adventures: my friend took his new Epic 18X Sport out for a solo daytrip circumnavigation of a Jersey barrier island known for the highly textured water at the inlet that marks its south end. This was at the tail end of Hurricane Igor--he ran into very lively water but reported that the Epic performed just fine with its new-style rudder. However, 4 of us, me paddling my 16X, went out a couple days later on the Bay, and my friend's left rudder cable broke. I got alongside and centered his rudder so he was able to lock it in straight-ahead position; we then hit the beach so he could see what happened. Seems the Spectra rudder cord had frayed at the left rudder pedal. He did a quickie repair with another piece of cord (nylon), but elected not to deploy the rudder and made his way back to the launch site. Took it to the local dealer, who took an hour and a half to replace the Spectra cord, and said that he's repaired 2 other Epics. I checked out this and found that Spectra does fray easily, though it's very strong, so I'm going to explore replacing my rudder lines with stainless. This may prevent me from easily changing my pedal/footrest position, but this doesn't concern me, as I'm the only one using my boat.

The rest of us had a great day on the water---my 16X was its usual excellent self, surfing chop eagerly, and moving sweetly and easily through the water. As I've said many times, no boat is perfect and now I'll be working on replacing the rudder lines, but these alterations serve to bind the boat and I together into a firmer and firmer partnership.

Follow-up to the Epic Adventures: Frayed Cable Department. I got a pair of replacement stainless steel rudder cables, and added them to my Epic 16X. I did not remove the Spectra lines but rather ran the stainless cables alongside the Spectra. The Spectra lines still are attached (along with the stainless) to the foot pedals, but now are not attached to the rudder yoke--they are just loosely coiled out of the way within the little rudder yoke compartment at the stern. With this setup, I can at any time remove the stainless cables and put the boat back into original spec. The only downside is that, with the stainless cables attached, I cannot change the location of the foot pedals. But that's fine with me, as I'm the only one using the boat.

I did this replacement due to being forewarned by my friend's experience with his rudder lines.

Thanks for responding, I like this review a lot because it answers a lot of questions asked about this boat. Currently I have a nice plastic er I mean "Corelite" P&H which is nice but I'm thinking of Epic as my next boat


Award Winning Luxury Cruises

Ah I see... thanks for the info. I'm still considering this boat heavily... Though justifying it is yet another matter... lol

Where is the Epic made? When I read something about Freya's boat they said something about China for the hull that was being replaced.

They are made in China. They began making the boats in South Africa, but ran into quality problems there. Ditto first supplier in China also, as I recall, but problems are supposedly solved now (vendor #2?). My boat is just fine from a construction point of view.

Wow the misinformation here is epic LOL.

Epic boats are not currently made in China. Production ceased there about two seasons ago due to increasing strains in the working relationship w. the Flying Eagle factory in Fuyang. There was also online evidence of what looks to be copyright infringement by the Chinese boatbuilding company: blackmarket versions which were clearly Epic designs were appearing for sale online.

When Epic sought to enforce their copyright and switch manufacturing facilities, Flying Eagle seized the moulds and said Epic would have to pay a reported $1 million to get them back. In effect that would put Epic out of business.

In response Epic began suit in late 2008 but thanks to the byzantine Chinese court system that'll prolly take years to settle. And who knows if they'll get a fair hearing.

In the meantime Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky, sadder, poorer but wiser, moved production back to the U.S. in South Carolina.

here are some links:

http://kayakracer.blogspot.com/2008/12/epic-production-problems-with.html

http://outdoors.fanhouse.com/2008/12/10/gold-medalist-sues-over-kayak-mold/

and the big picture:

http://www.products-liability-insurance....rcing-in-china/

As Greg Barton admits, it did understandably delay and disrupt their ability to supply boats and paddles. however, the Epic rep making the rounds at this year's symposium at Grand Marais had plenty of both for people to demo and hopefully those in the kayak racing community will continue to place orders now that production is in the U.S. and under the direct control of Oscar and Greg.

Now, the deal w. Freya's first (custom) boat in the Australian circumnavigation was that the newly designed integrated, pivoting rudder failed. So Epic had to replace that boat w. a stock boat already in inventory w. the more typical Epic rudder.

I'm not sure where or when the first boat was made but since Freya started out in late 2009 I'm thinking her first, custom boat was made within the year, which would make it a U.S. built boat. The replacement boat almost certainly was.

My 2009 16X is "Made in China under Joint Venture with Hangzhou Great Eagle Watersports Equipment Co., Ltd." So says the label inside the cockpit. Maybe it's a fake!

I'd be interested in the source of the news about Epic now manufacturing in South Carolina. Don't doubt it; just want the source. Must have missed the announcement.

I think I read she had lamination problems on the first boat. It may have never been used not sure.

I just purchased,ordered, an Epic 18X Sport. I thought it would be coming from thier new factory in China? They sent a conformation email that they recieved the order and it should ship in November.

They did not say where it was shipping from. I would like to find out for sure, so I will call them tomorrow to confirm where it is manufactured.

One thing I know for sure, try to find a used Epic 18X and you wont be able to find one. People love these boats and when they get one they rarely sell it.

I did here that they fixed the problem with the Track Master plus pivoting rudder...

Well, check out this article by Greg Barton.

http://www.epickayaks.com/racing/blog/gregbarton/new-epic-production-in-china

It looks like they have a new factory up and running and new molds. So my new boat should be state of the art...

Wow, thanks for the input, Nhk. Your link confirms what I posted about Epic's epic manufacturing problems with China vendor #1, and their subsequent move to vendor #2. Wonder where Katabatic got that other tale?

once things fell apart w. the first factory, production of Epic boats and paddles was in hiatus. Greg Barton was simultaneously looking at two options:

#1, to bring production back to the U.S. New moulds would be made there. Those who know about this process know it's neither easy nor cheap to produce moulds, even replicate ones.And the originals were still held by the first vendor which was one of the driving issues for the lawsuit.

Epic got a large warehouse in Charleston with the idea of being able to address pending orders by selling new old stock.
They then proceeded to bring all available inventory from countries other than China (incl. European countries and Australia) and in fact had a huge sell off in early November 2009 of this older unsold product. This appeared in a log entry for a meetup group in the Charleston area.

At that point many (incl. the Epic reps to whom I spoke)
thought that production was shifting to the U.S. Barton was spending an inordinate amount of time dealing w. the Chinese
and they were concerned about production delays and quality control of the first vendor.

Option #2 was to find a second Chinese vendor, in another province, which is what wound up happening. Greg Barton still had to spend much time overseas to get things up and running smoothly w. vendor #2. Apparently things are satisfactory enough that the idea of bringing production to the U.S. was dropped.

My sources are people who rep for Epics in particular a conversation of last July (July 2009). I am OK w. admitting that my statement about production in the U.S. was wrong. It was the last thing I'd heard about it.

*****************

The bigger picture is why Americans continue to buy products made in China which is, by far, the largest holder of U.S. debt, which is a threat to our still precarious economy.

China is well known for disregard of intellectual property rights, copyright, and flouting of the most minimal environmental standards for industrial production.

Especially when it comes to buying non esssentials like sports toys (yes, they are nonessential, even to people here) China is not getting my business. And many other people are making that decision as well.

the attached link to an article on the Frontenac Outfitters website is very much on point:

http://www.frontenac-outfitters.com/kayaks/made-in-china.cfm

This article was released in January 2009. Since then Necky has moved production from China to Thailand.

It would be interesting to have a discussion about this. I'll be back after the weekend. Ciao!

It sounds like I am going to get a nice high quality Epic 18X Sport. They should have all the kinks worked out by now and making some great boats!
I dont have any problem buying from China or anywhere else, we are all inhabitants of the planet earth and belong to the same species. Plus, we are helping poor starving Chinese people by giving them jobs.

Nhk, do keep an eye on the Spectra rudder cable situation when you get your 18X Sport. When my friend's cable broke, his rudder was over to one side and could not be centered by him while seated in the boat; I came alongside and centered it for him. He was glad he hadn't been solo and offshore when the cable frayed, as he would have had to exit the boat in order to center the rudder so as not to paddle in circles. He also said that, without the rudder's retractable skeg deployed, he found the boat quite a handful to handle in the following seas that marked the route back to the launch site. And he couldn't deploy the skeg because that would have released the rudder from its locked, centered position. My older 16X has a conspicuous nubbin, bump, fin on the underside of the rudder that serves as enough of a skeg so as to enable fully controlled paddling with the rudder kept centered; the newer rudder replaces that fin with the retractable skeg within the rudder.

It will be interesting to see how/if Epic deals with this situation, if it does become a widespread complaint (the Spectra cables' fraying problem). I would suggest that they refigure the rudder with stainless cables, or, more difficult for them to accept, that they revert to a stock Feathercraft or other type rudder. I'm happy with my 2009 16X as it is now, but let Epic owners be aware of what might develop.

Ya, I will take a close look at that when I get the new boat. My Easy Rider tends to wear rudder cable too, but that is because they go through small holes in the Hull to run exterior to the rudder.

Also I usually never paddle without a rudder unless I am in close to shore and need to maneuver. So, I will look into stainless also when the time comes.

So far I cant find anyone else posting on the internet about the rudder cable problem? I wonder if that is the problem Freya had?

IT'S HERE! I'm going to pick it up tomorrow...I cant sleep I'm so excited...

It took approximately 45 days from time of order to receive my new Epic 18X.

I still wont be able to paddle it until Wednesday night though...

Congrats, Nhk! Hope you enjoy the boat to the max. My friend loves his 18X Sport, now that he's gotten through the frayed-cable problem. I'm continuing to LOVE my 16X, warts and all.

Ya, I can see what you mean about the rudder lines. I will see how they hold up for now, but I have been looking into some material called Dyneema®. It is 18 times stronger than steel, floats and is water proof. They use is for sailboat rigging and many other uses. This may be the way I go when I replace the lines someday. Dyneema® doesn't cost that much either.

My new Epic, now I just need some time to paddle...

Great looking boat. I am getting a new boat for X-mass and having a hard time decideing between the Epic 18 and the QCC 700. Both are great boats that are very similar.

Keep one thing in mind.

I am 6'3" tall, 210lbs, with size 13 feet and I use almost all the adjustment up on the Epic 18x sport. So if you are bigger than me you might want to make sure you fit, especially if you have feet bigger than 13.

I was torn between the two boats also, but I could not find a Qcc-700 to demo anywhere in Washington or Oregon, so I went whith the Epic and Epic usually wins all the races around here too, so I know it is a fast boat.

I am 6'3" 170 LBS size 11 shoe. Have paddled a QCC 700 but can not find a Epic 18X around here to to try. Both boats have a good reputation for being fast, Quality boats and the operator is probably the biggest difference in them.

Yes, they do look very similar, except for the rudder design and cockpit design. The hulls look very similar though.

Well, I though I would post an update on my EPIC. I have gotten out for a few paddles now and have it tuned in and trimmed fairly well now. I got out on Lake Washington the other day in some rough water and was pleasantly surprised!

This kayak tends to slice through the waves like a knife instead of bouncing over them like my past sea kayaks and it is very stable at all angles to the waves. I felt very fast while going straight into the wind and waves and also at other various angles. The GPS said I sustained an average of 5 MPH speed for 50 minutes. I could only do 3.5 to 4 MPH in my past boats, so I am very pleased with the performance of this awesome sea kayak so far.

I can hardly wait to get on some long distance trips this spring and summer. I am kind of a fair weather sea kayaker and do mostly ww in the winter, so the Epic X Sport is relegated to day trips for now...

Nhk, glad you're really liking your 18X. My friend took his out through the inlet into the ocean yesterday and fooled around out there for a while. He checked out about 25 seals that hang around Little Egg Inlet all winter, and overall had a fine time. He's as happy with his (now that he's had the rudder cords replaced)as you are with yours, and I am with my 16X.

Nhk750,
I might never get up to Lake Washington, but just in case I do, where is the best place to put in? Is the parking secure?

Since I would be coming from the south, I guess I would be more interested in something near Renton. I've been on Lake Washington, but it's been a long time and it was in a sail boat. We used to come in through the ship canal to see the hydro races.

: but I have been looking into some material called Dyneema®

Same material as Spectra but is the Dutch name for it. A friend and I have both broken SS cables but not Spectra/Dyneema®. Wire fatigues, Spectra doesn't and there should be a covering that wears or chafes off long before the cable should break.

Alex

I park at Gene Coulon park. It is at the very South end of the lake and has great secure easy parking close to the water. you have to be out of the park by 8pm though. This is in Renton right next to I-405 and is patrolled regularly by the Renton police. I have never had a problem there.

I just purchased some Dyneema line from West Marine.

7/64" AmSteel-Blue Dyneema Single Braid, 1600lb. Breaking Strength.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/sto...;classNum=10234

It should be here in the next few days and I will see how it works. The line that is on the Epic right now looks a little weak, and this Dyneema looks really strong. I dont want to take any chances out there when I am on a multiday.

Dyneema has a slightly different molecular structure than spectra and higher breaking strength in the larger diameters. It displays slightly better wear characteristics in heavy use areas, but has more elasticity than Honeywell's Spectra 1000. This fiber is popular in Europe and is gaining popularity in the states. Examples of cordage containing Dyneema: Amsteel Blue, Warpspeed, Superbraid, Ultrex, LOUPS.

Talking of strength, I have been using 2 mm diameter for over a decade. I originally supplied rudders with 3 mm (~1/8") but that is over-kill.

7/64" works out for me at 2.7 mm.

The first Mac50, built over a decade ago by my partner, still has the original rudder lines as does my other kayak which is a year younger. What hasn't been mentioned is where others have had breaks or wear with Spectra lines.

Alex

My understanding of the problems that other owners have had with the Spectra rudder lines is that the culprit is chafing of the line, not breakage due to excessive tensile force. The Epic rudder/footpedal/footrest system weaves the Spectra through a hole in the pedal, then out of sight behind the footboard, where somehow slack is either taken up or let out when the footboard/footpedal assembly is moved forward or back. One cannot see the path that the Spectra takes, once it's behind the footboard, but it is probably convoluted, with opportunities to chafe in various places. Like Nhk, I chose not to risk any possibility of rudder failure, and replaced my Spectra, but with stainless. I've never had a moment's problem with stainless on my other boats, with 15 years in place on my previous boat. But I'm pretty sure that stainless can't be threaded through the Epic system like Spectra or Dyneema, so I gave up the ability to move the footpedal/footrest assembly easily forward or back. But my confidence in the stainless is very high.

It sounds like the system that one of our paddlers showed us back about 1992 and is used by a few manufacturers here.

It allows the rudder pedals to be adjusted without the need to adjust the rudder lines. As our own kayaks don't usually need pedal adjustment, but use that system, it means we have it right as we don't have chafe problems though the wear point is always the same.

The absolutely critical part of the path is the line needs to go round the hinge pin or round something in line with the pin so that there is no rubbing where the line goes through the hole in the pedal. It is all a matter of geometry.

You can look at the DIY part of -

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/grantglazer/Kayak/

Also -

http://sites.google.com/site/kayakamf/kayakrudders

This shows the path. We had a manufacturer here who couldn't get the message and blamed the system.

It sounds like who ever designed the Epic pedals missed the point.

And no, wire won't work as the bends are too tight.

Alex

The actual page is -

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/grantglazer/Kayak/HintsSandyRudderPedal.htm

Note that our pedals are "full-foot" pedals, that is they are the size of your foot with the hinge about level with the ankle. If you move your foot you will see that the heel comes back as the toes go forward.

The rudderlines can be set so that there isn't actually any pressure on the line so the rudder sets up in a neutral position (minimum drag) and moving a foot/toe forward kicks in enough rudder to do a course correction.

Alex

Alex, thanks for providing the info. I think I'll do a little more research into how the Epic system works, just to satisfy my curiosity.

It's now 2 years and 2 months since I bought my Epic 16X. I continue to be extraordinarily pleased, over and over, with the boat as a companion for the sort of paddling I do. It is lightweight, making it easy to get on and off the roof racks and onto the water. The combination of light weight and hull design makes the boat fast and easy to paddle, so I can easily keep up with or even outrun my paddling partners. The boat doesn't weathercock, is relatively stable, and behaves very well in a seaway. As I've outlined in previous posts, I've made some modifications: reworked the straps that hold the hatches closed (these have been replaced by cams on the newer boats); replaced the bungees with stronger, thicker ones; replaced the Spectra rudder cords with stainless; reworked the architecture of the foot pedals. I've also filled the articulated-stern rudder with spray-in minicell foam to eliminate a leaking problem thru the bolt-hole that holds the rudder to the boat, and have twice epoxied the rail that the seat slides on back onto the hull interior. I've made these various changes and repairs with a cheerful, positive attitude that I'm making a fine boat even better--my history with the four kayaks I've had now includes building two of them (wood) and custom-fitting them out, and extensively "revising" the two store-bought fiberglass boats, the Dirigo 17 and this Epic 16X, to suit my requirements for a very personal boat/companion. Paddlers who cannot imagine themselves fiddling around and tinkering with a kayak in this manner should bear this in mind when they evaluate my analysis of the Epic. But they should recall that Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky are primarily racers and are interested, first and foremost, in making boats that are light and fast; they are not recreational paddlers. But paddlers should also recall that Freya Hoffmeister circled Australia and is circling South America in an Epic, and that says a lot about the positive qualities of the Epics. I am almost always paddling mine with a big smile on my face!

Freya Hoffmeister also had a problem with her Epic due to quality of the hull if I remember correctly. She had a specially built boat also for the journey. I would be worried about a production boat in that case. If I had to change that much on a 2 year old kayak I would not be happy. That is just my personal opinion.

Doing the things below seems more like a redesign for design problems than personalizing the kayak. Your kayak is not a race boat as far as I know. I can see a super light weigh race boat not taking abuse because it is purpose built. My friend has a new Epic surfski I hope to paddle this winter.

Just my opinion.

"I've made some modifications: reworked the straps that hold the hatches closed (these have been replaced by cams on the newer boats); replaced the bungees with stronger, thicker ones; replaced the Spectra rudder cords with stainless; reworked the architecture of the foot pedals. I've also filled the articulated-stern rudder with spray-in minicell foam to eliminate a leaking problem thru the bolt-hole that holds the rudder to the boat, and have twice epoxied the rail that the seat slides on back onto the hull interior."

Dog, your reaction is totally understandable--the Epic is a boat that required the modifications that I made in order for me to maximize my pleasure and satisfaction in paddling it. In one or more of my previous posts, I suggested that Epic consider hanging a traditional rudder off the stern, etc., etc. None of these suggestions are new. My boat now is exactly where I want it to be, because I was prepared to make the changes to it that I have. There is no way that I would expect large numbers (or even small numbers) of today's kayak purchasers to become so personally involved in altering their boats. My interest here (like the experience with my Dirigo) is to offer a candid warts-and-all discussion of my experiences with an unusual sea kayak--its strengths and weaknesses. I think it may be more useful than the nonsense one encounters routinely on some other kayaking websites wherein happy owners tell you endlessly how wonderful their boats are (until they sell them in order to buy an even more wonderful boat).

I don't recall Freya having a problem with her first boat's hull; I know she started with a stock boat because her custom boat wasn't ready, then switched when the custom boat became available. Anybody know more? And my point about Barton and Chalupsky being racers was not that the 18X and the 16X are racing boats--they're not--but that they are the kind of boats that one would expect that racers unfamiliar with recreational kayaking would design.

Hi, I'm new to the forum and saw you chatting on the 16x. I just got a second hand 18x and it goes well on flatwater, I covered on the garmin 7.5km (4.7 miles) in 42'53" avg 10.5km/h or 6.6mph. There is a clip on YouTube of a guy taking it all out...,