Hi,
I'm new'ish to Kayaking and have a WONDERFUL nimble P&H Sorpio LV Kayak. I like how it's relatively light at 50lbs (55lbs with everything), handles very well, feels well connected and so forth.

I'm now looking for a Kayak which has the least drag over that coveted 4.5knots range. I'm ready to buy a larger kayak around 18-20' and was wondering if anyone has used the following Sea Kayaks or recommends a brand I look into?:

Valley Sea Kayak - Rapier 18 or Rapier 20
Skim - Distance 19
Skim - Dex 17
QCC - Q700x 18'
Warren Light Craft (overrated?) - Little Wing 18'


PS> I don't get the Little wing, it seems to have just made the boat more stable while maintaining good speed and not really have reduced drag... looks really nice though..

~M

mitch, if you've read very many of the posts on this website, I'm sure I sound like a broken record, but you asked, so here goes: I found myself looking for a fast, but comortable and seaworthy craft and after a lot of looking, I bought an NC Expedition. This boat is 19'-2" long and in my opinion, it just don't get any better.

There are a few longer and certainly skinnier boats out there, but non are going to do the job any better and look as good doing it. To be honest, it took me a while to get used to this boat, but once you've experienced what this boat is capable of, it's hard to imagine being satisfied with anything else. It's not a play boat; it's meant for racking up serious miles in whatever kind of conditions Neptune can conjure up. nckayaks.com

Mitch,
Here is a link to a test of the Little Wing 18 in a Norwegian magazine: http://www.scandickajakk.com. During the test they found the top speed was 7 knots and the cruising speed was 4.8 knots. I paddle a Little Wing 12.5, and I would agree with your comments that. "it seems to have just made the boat more stable while maintaining good speed and not really have reduced drag... looks really nice though..". The 36-Lb weight is not bad either for an 18-footer. I would agree that there may be better boats for your purposes.

the QCC 700x can really move, and haul a ton. Seats are junk though

"Magooch",

Honestly, NC 19 looks like a fantastic Kayak but nothing (other than size) lends it to the idea that it's truly a fast kayak. It's 24" wide, and has a starting passenger weight of 190lbs. I would charactorize this hull more for a casual to semi-serious kayaker who wants a good swiss army knife of Kayaks. Though I'm sure being 19' long it has a good chance of keeping a good pace, however, I can't find any technical data to confirm or deny that claim.


PS> whats with their website ? Kind of cheapish IMHO.

Hey, Thanks for your comments....

.... you've made a comment about weight, from what I've come to understand about boat hulls, weight isn't as important as it may seem in terms of speed. In particular, Kayaks weighing 10-15 lbs apart will not improve overall speed, though it will carry less momentum and seem to take off quicker I suppose. I could go into the science of it but basically it's about the wetted surface not changing all that much to make a serious difference.

In terms of speed, 7 knots is quite good I suppose, I'm a beginner who has some upper body strength and found that I could push my P&H only 6knots for any extended period of time. Though i wonder about my Kayak's ability because it was so easy to use a slower speeds (usually indicating a different cruising hull style)...

Would be interesting to see how the Little Wing 18 could do..

Can you go into detail ? I was actually seriously considering this Kayak... The dominant complaint I saw was that the hatches didn't keep things 100% dry...

Mitch, that business about the NC Expedition having a starting "passenger" weight of 190 lbs. has me baffled. I don't weigh that much--even with my clothes on. But I don't carry any passengers along if I can help it.

Saying that a boat has nothing but size (length) to suggest that it might be fast is like saying that a car with a 500 hp engine has little else to suggest that it might be fast. Of course there are many other design factors involved in determining a boats potential velocity. If you ever get a chance to look at the hull design on an NC, you will see why they are fast.

If ultimate top speed were the only criteria for a proper kayak, I guess anyone could design a good one. My preference is for a boat that is fast, comfortable, seaworthy, stable, dry, tracks, and isn't much affected by wind and current. Oh, and is light enough to carry on my shoulder, beautiful in design and workmanship....

There I go again. I just can't help it.

Mitch,

I want to make sure that you did not misinterpret my comemnts about the speed of the Little Wing 18 or the effect of its light weight.

I would guess that the Norwegian testers of the LW18 could maintain 7 knots for only a few minutes at most. They said 7 knots was the top speed and that they cruised at 4.8 knots. Other paddlers have found the speed of the LW18 to be in the same range as the QCC 700 and the Epic kayaks. You may have unrealistic expectations of a cruising speed that can be maintained for any length of time.

As far as I know, differences in weights of kayaks do not affect their long-distance cruising speeds. Light weight results in faster acceleration and more responsive handling given the same hull shape. I primarily like the light weight of my LW12.5 (22 Lbs) for the way it responds to paddler input and the ease of carrying it to an from my launch site. It is a real joy to both paddle and transport.

I'm not sure why you are "baffled", I'm just suggesting that a boat designed for someone a bit heavier than me is not going to be the fastest design for me PERHAPS. "The NC19 best fits paddlers measuring 5'6"- 6'8" weighing between 190-350 lbs. with up to a size 15½ shoe." -novuscomposites.com.

I also go on to state that the NC19 is a great boat because of it's usability. I also notice that they offer a TON of colors which is fairly rare..

mitch, while almost all the the info on NC's website is very specific and quite accurate, the part about paddlers needing to be 190 to 350 pounds for the Expedition is something they need to modify. There is nothing about the boat that requires one to be of any particular weight. It would be hard to imagine a very small person selecting a boat the size of the Expedition, but it would also be hard for me to contemplate a 6'-6", 350 pounder trying to stuff him, or herself into an Expedition.

If you could have been with me yesterday, I think I could have sold you on why I believe the NC Expedition is without doubt, the boat to have if you are serious about sea kayaking. The wind was pretty strong and the tide was running straight out into the wind. The waves were steep and breaking. I left shore without putting my skirt on, which wasn't too bright, but even without it, I stayed dry.

I ducked into a marina and put my skirt on and then went back out there. For a while I thought it prudent to keep the bow into the wind, but pretty soon I turned around and went surfing. Later, after a little shore break, I decided to go ahead and cross the river to the other side. That meant that I had to expose my beam to those waves. The boat couldn't have cared less; it didn't matter how big the waves got, at no point did I have to even deploy a brace. On the way back across the monster waves, I angled slightly away from the wind. That put the waves on my rear quarter. This for sure is asking for a broach. The boat just flew throught the waves like it was in a race. It never offered a hint of a broach.

I've had the boat in big wave before, but this time I kind of just went for it and didn't even bother to try to be careful. I even purposely just let the boat drift beam to the waves to see what would happen. I think I could have hunkered down in the cockpit and taken a nap. I probably won't purposely put myself into those conitions again, but I'm glad to know that if things deteriorate, the Expedition will get me home safe.

Magooch, your obvious enthusiasm for NC kayaks has led you well beyond simple advocacy into Derek Hutchinson-like certainty: "...the NC Expedition is without doubt, the boat to have if you are serious about sea kayaking". My latest favorite Hutchinsonian utterance comes from some notes in a Canadian paddling journal, 2008: "If you want to paddle successfully, you want a 90-degree feather. I use a 90-degree feather".

Seriously, I think I'm a reasonably serious sea kayaker, but even I don't have an NC Expedition. I'll bet Derek Hutchinson doesn't have one either.

Well, I happen to have one of Derek's designs and I could write about it too, but haven't got the time right now. I'm headed for the water and another fabulous day in the Expedition.

Gee, I thought I was having some success in paddling, but I hardly ever use a 90 degree feather. Oh well.

You and Derek should give NC a try. Just kidding, but you can't really fault a guy for being enthusiastic about what turns him on.

Regarding the weight range -
I guess you could assert that they need to modify their website but to me when I see a large (LOA) kayak with a 'full sized' beam, I would think the same thing. They could have easily shaved the beam down to 20-21" IMHO.

Regarding your trip -
Pretty crazy and fun I'm sure :-) . I was out on the hudson river the other day and had 2+' sharp waves slamming into my P&H, with the skeg deployed I was easily able to keep on course.

Though returning with waves and current with me, I was surfing at my fastest rate ever obtained in that kayak (prob 10mph).
The skeg was continually rising out of the water and I was constantly having to control the direction of the boat as I wasn't wanting to go completely in the direction of the waves. Right before I got to the launch ramp, I almost tipped over and used EVERY bit of strength and tilting to save it. I had my inflatable PFD so I would have been more than just a little pissed if it deployed so close to the end of my trip. I can see how a wider boat (BOA) would help a lot but I think my Sorpio LV's biggest limitation was it's length. I can't see increasing the wetted surface for a little more stability, seems unnecessary for what I'm doing with the boat.

PS> You talk about beam but to me that is the width, I refer to the sides as I do with a boat and call it "freeboard". Anyway, thanks for you comments. NC makes a great kayak.

mitch,
When I was trying out and looking at boats in search of one that would serve as a long distance touring kayak, I too was very aware of boat width. Along the way, I looked at some very narrow boats; I even tried a few out and merely sat in some. Long distance to me means that I will be spending long periods of time in the saddle. Not one of the ultra skinny boats was comfortable for more than a few minutes. One boat I tried was so tight that I couldn't even squirm around.

I began to wonder if some designers are more concerned with skinny as a status symbol as much as a performance factor. I've come to believe that a properly designed boat doesn't sacrifice one aspect in order to maximise another--especially if the kayak is going to do more than one thing.

I'm sure that the guys at Novus Composites could have gone for a narrower boat when they designed the Expedition, but what I've come to realize is that they do things their way and as far as I've seen it's usually for a very good reason. I personally wouldn't want to give up one ounce of this boat's stability and believe me, speed is not a problem.

At the risk of jumping into something already in progress, I would like to comment about the Expedition and weights... a friend of mine has that boat, and if he were soaking wet and wearing combat boots he would not approach 190 pounds. And it is a fast, stable and maneuverable boat for him. I have to say I envy his boat, too.

Width does matter to some extent, though the issue is how much stability/comfort etc. do you want to give up in the process.

I'm about 180lbs (should prob be 170) and could easily fit into a 20-21 inch boat. From the rough formula I used to calculate top boat speed, an increase from say 20 to 25 inches can shave an entire knot off the top speed. Another thing, the hull design of your boat is designed to track really well, so your views about skegs may not apply towards other boats.

Again, this boat is designed for larger people, it's 24" wide and 13" deep, that is a LOT of volume. This boat is a lot like the Current Designs. So stating a starting weight of 190 may in fact be accurate.

Though skill is required to get a boat to top speed, moot point for most people and hence the NC 19 is fine for anyone. I feel that I am really putting in more and more effort in my 16.7 and I'm not going any faster, I can feel the paddles just straining to keep up. Hence this thread ..

The boat isn't the most maneuverable, it isn't the fastest thing out there, nor the lightest... your friend is defending his purchase and would be probably performing better in a smaller 19'er.

...is it a GREAT boat for people who want to take long trips with a nice long efficient hull that tracks really well, has plenty of storage space, and feels safe on the water ... yes!

I don't think anyone tried to claim that the NC Expedition is the fastest, nor the most maneuverable long boat out there. What it is, is exactly what the manufacturer says it is--fast, comfortable, stabil, dry, beautiful, light, and efficient. Trying to evaluate a boat by its raw dimensions is not what I would do. I look at the total package and then try it on. In other words, a boat can have all the "right" dimensions and still not be right for me. I'm not saying that I don't have certain prejudices--I do, but what I have come to believe is that there is no one boat that can do everything really well. I guess I'm lucky that I'm not limited to just one boat.

You make very good points, I appreciate that you take the time to contribute your views about that boat and other things as well ... :-)

I guess I'm limited to one boat because my other boat is a 40' expensive hole in the water to which I'm always throwing money. My thoughts were to find the fastest boat in the 18-20' range and the try it out and see if it's also going to hold up in rougher seas. I guess from what I'm reading, I could have also included EPIC on that list. The NC 19 is a fantastic boat, and I think the reviews show that as well... I like my P&H a lot, it feels safe and stable for the most part...

Magooch. Your last post on the NC Expedition makes a lot of sense - it probably an excellent all-around boat for medium to larger paddlers. The problem is that you like your boat so much that no matter what characteristics someone else is looking for in a kayk, you seem to think that the Expedition or some other NC kayak is the answer. Mitch started with asking for suggestions on "Ideas for truly fast kayaks". I don't know what other critia Mitch has for a boat, but we know he is looking for fast and efficient at about 4.5 knots. Kayaks that are narrower than the Expedition are truly faster and more efficient.

Not long ago, another poster was looking for the lightest possible kayaks. Again, your answer was NC kayaks.

As the owner of a Little Wing, I mentioned Warren Liitle Wing kayaks in response to the two posters criteria of speed and light weight, but I was not so adamant that the Warren boats are the best for everyone. I even said to Mitch that "there are probably other kayaks better suited for your purposes." Why would I say that? Because I am trying to be honest and objective, while not even knowing Mitches' other criteria besides speed.

I can assure you that each of the Little Wings is among the fastest and lightest and most manuverable for its length, and the among the most stable for its width of any kayak ever manufactured. Why would I not recommend Little Wings to everyone? Warren achieves the extremely light weight by manufacturing their boats from a very thin carbon layup over a foam core. I have had my boat only about six months, but it has already accumulated many small dents in the hull, and I have not hit anything that I know of that would have caused any of the dents. They seem to appear for no reason. Becuase of my comments to Zac Warren, they switched to a stiffer foam core and will make future customers aware that heavier layups are available, which should prevent much of the denting. But, their kayaks will no doubt weigh more, and light weight is one of their main claims in their adveritisements. There is always a trade off.

Mitch, if your criteria for your next sea kayak are very rigid and very firm in your mind, then you owe it to yourself to test-paddle under varied conditions at least a couple or three boats. I gather you are interested in go-fast boats that could handle textured water. The QCC 700, the Epic 18X, the KayakPro Nemo all suggest themselves (among others) as kayaks to test. I find kayak "reviews", especially by happy owners, to be the least useful way to find out about any given boat's suitability. I'd suggest that you get friendly enough with any dealers or owners of such go-fast boats so that you can try them out under real-world conditions. There is no substitute.

I plead guilty to pushing NC boats and I'm not backing off one bit. Mitch wants a fast boat that is very seaworthy. That is NC to a tee.

By all means, I would suggest that anyone try out as many boats as possible and there is where the problem comes. NC boats are not sold through dealers, but I think there is one somewhere in the Northeast that sometimes buys one for resale. The same is true of QCC and a few other factory direct boats. If owners can't get the word out about these great boats, then how are potential buyers going to learn about them?

MikeH, I would never suggest that any one boat is the best choice for every paddler--least of all a boat like the NC Expedition, but when someone makes a generally inquiry about a great sea kayak, I'm going to add my two cents.

I can tell that you are very enthusiastic about your boat as you should be and I would never suggest that you keep it a secret.

Did you select one yet?

hopefully, in addition to the already mentioned Epics and QCC 700 the OP looked into the West Side EFT, Van Dusen Mohican K-1.

Check out the Valley Rapier 18 or 20 too.

These are the kayaks seen again and again at sanctioned competitive events. Surfskis in the 18-21 range are frequent entrants and place high as well, but I'm assuming the OP wants a SINK.

Just to stir it up I'll say there is NO British or Greenland style hull nearly as fast as any of these. Including any I own, including - heh - even NC Kayaks.

Just when I think I found all the kayak companies they just keep coming! Cool boats to bad they are over my ability to stay upright!

One of the Epics is 20 feet and 20 pounds. Mind boggling!

eh, they are over most people's ability to stay upright. Many have been humbled

I can paddle an Epic 18x or Rapier 18 straight for awhile, god help me if I had to keep turning in textured water.

Wait til you paddle a surfski (Fenn, Mako, Epic etc.)!
Make it a day you wanna get wet and stay wet. I paddled a Futura 18 footer in carbon w. an 18" beam. The foot braces were frozen and way too long for me to brace against and I couldn't, naturally, work the rudder.(the owner was 6'3") so I had to rely on pure balance. Managed to stay upright but it took a lot of focus and the water was dead calm.

There are also some stunning performance SOTs made in Australia, New Zealand etc. Too bad that Current Designs discontinued the Zone. It was the nearest thing to a performance SOT made in North America.

Actually I think the ZOne was made in China by CD.

the only kayaks made in China for CD are the ones in the Vision series.

magooch wrote:

"I began to wonder if some designers are more concerned with skinny as a status symbol as much as a performance factor."

I begin to wonder if you can make an objective statement about this boatbuilder. This board is littered w. your repetitive posts that NC Kayaks are the best in every category of attribute - speed, stability,tracking, light weight, comfort and even highly opinionated categories like aesthetics.

on the NC website home page they state "our kayaks are fastest in their class" whatever that means. Sounds more like marketing puffery. There is no data to support it other than a statistic based on sprinting speed, which they acknowledge most cannot attain nor sustain.

Any review done by SeaKayaker Magazine has a lot more useful
data in that regard.

A narrow beam is one of a number of factors that makes for a faster hull, but it is a very important factor. Surfskis and the racing kayaks seen in sanctioned events are narrow for a reason. Many are as narrow as 17 or 18 inches. Seakayaks w. beams of 23" are very wide in comparison.They trade speed for stability.

People tend to have emotional attachments to things like boats. That's fine within its sphere. However it is not the basis for an objective recommendation to another kayaker.

What I see on the website for NC Kayaks are unrelentingly wide boats (beam 23")designed for larger paddlers, primarily, based on the weight limits, intended to carry gear. In that regard it's odd that only several models have TWO hatches. Gear haulers generally are not the fastest boats. This is not to knock them, there are tradeoffs for everything.

Most NC models lack full perimeter deck lining. This and having two bulkheaded hatch compartment are highly desirable in full-on seakayaks both for safety and functionality.

Of all the models only one of them is under 50 lbs in their standard glass layup. The others are hardly "lightweight" relative to other fiberglass boats of comparable length.

I was curious about their layups and so read this part of the FAQ section:

http://www.nckayaks.com/faq.php

As for upgrades to a lighter carbon or kevlar layup, the upcharge of $899 is ridiculously inflated. And the statement that "our LT fiberglass layups are within a pound of our carbon/Kevlar kayaks" is pretty much an open admission that they do not know how to work w. these materials. Other manufacturers are able to deliver a weight savings of 4-5 lbs, typically, and for less than half the cost.

The website comments about the inferiority of carbon and kevlar in a boats layup has so many inaccuracies it would require a separate post, but suffice to say that both materials are encased in fiberglass and so UV deterioration is not a factor.

Suffice to say that all damage which penetrates the gel coat will entail repair to protect what lies beneath, be it fiberglass cloth or a hybrid of glass around a core of Kevlar or carbon. Repair is repair - use the right materials and the right methods, and it will come out well.

The statement that kevlar and carbon boats attract water, and so cause the boat to weigh more over time, has not proven to be the case with boats made by other manufacturers.

Perhaps NC Kayaks does not have the knowledge or skill to utilize the newer technologies of making composite boats, e.g. vacuum bagging or vacuum infusion. I do not know since they omit this critical piece of information. A weight savings of about 1 lb in exchange for an upgrade charge of $899 is very unimpressive. I guess in that sense they are doing potential customers a favor by discouraging them from ordering an upgraded layup.

So instead they publish a lot of inaccuracies about materials that other kayak makers (also small to medium sized companies) have been using very successfully for many years in many different models.


Magooch, you may think your continual cheerleading for NC Kayaks illustrates your product loyalty and determination not to "back down" despite the polite suggestions by other posters.

You have your opinions, I have mine.

My opinion is your endless shilling for NC Kayaks is annoying, off point, and in the long run too biased to be helpful to people who come to these forums seeking help.

It also dilutes the value of this board for me. If I want to read posts by other people patting themselves on the back for their choice of boats, there are other boards to visit. But frankly I am tired of wading through stuff like that on those boards and am approaching my limit here.

Ah well, I don't expect that this will yield any reasoned discussion or fruitful result, but I thank anyone who took the time to read it. Have an excellent weekend with time on the water if possible.

Jeez, Katabatic, I told you to take the day off and have a long, relaxing paddle. Hope you feel better after the weekend. I know getting the Epic story wrong really must have stung (I like Chairman Mao, the Great Helmsman's advice to "Learn truth from facts!"), and not believe everything a rep tells you), but why vent your spleen on poor Magooch? Everybody knows his thing about NC kayaks, just like your thing is an obsession with the minutiae of boat specs ad nauseam.

My only question to Katabatic is, have you ever seen an NC other than pictures? Have you paddled one. I have seen the CD Caribou and have paddled it. I'm not knocking it, I'm just suggesting that before you judge a boat, you might want to check it out.

I have had many discussions with the guys at NC about some of the issues you questioned. I too was skeptical about some of their claims. All I can say is that seeing and paddling is believing. And the guys who build NC kayaks learned their craft with composites as Boeing engineers, so I think they know what they're doing. I'm not stuck on any one manufacturer, or design, but I do feel that I am entitled to my opinions as much as anyone else is.

I don't think I have ever seriously stated that NC boats are the best for every type of sea kayaking and in fact I have made a point that they are for straight line cruising; they are not a play boat.

If my posts are too tedious for you, just skip over them. They are not required reading. In any case, I am not going to moderate my enthusiasm for what I believe is a fantastic kayak as I wouldn't expect you to be less obsessed with your boats.

Magooch, just for the record, I don't think my Epic is a fantastic kayak, and I am not obsessed with it--it's just the boat I happen to own and paddle now, and I am pleased with it, after having modified it to better meet my needs. Maybe it's your use of the word "fantastic"....... You did post, "...the NC Expedition is without doubt, the boat to have if you are serious about sea kayaking." So you're right--you didn't actually say that NC boats are the best for every type of sea kayaking; it's just the only boat to have if you are serious about sea kayaking. That IS fantastic!

Okay, I plead guilty to being a shill, enthusiast, fanatic, self appointed whatever. If a person can't be a "cheerleader" for a product that has exceeded every expectation--well it's a sorry world.

After all, this is just a webside where we share our opinions, so I accept Katabatic's opinions for what they are. I know I am more turned on by someone's positive remarks about a given product, but I also appreciate it when someone is brutally honest about a less than satisfactory experience. I try very hard to be objective when I offer an opinion, so if it comes out hyperbolic--so be it.

Magooch, the problem is that you are doing NC Kayaks little or no good at all by your constant over-the-top drum beating for their boats--it's become very near a joke. Think about it.

Just what is it that is over the top? I can't remember everything I've said about NC kayaks, but if I said it, I meant it. That's called an opinion. And it isn't my primary point to be an advocate for NC. I usually only offer my opinion about their boats when someone asks for suggestions either about NC in particular, or for recommendations about a good sea kayak.

If I were manufacturing kayaks, I would much prefer someone express exuberance about my product than to say it's an okay boat that has possible rudder problems.

I really do like my NC a lot and for that matter, I like all of my kayaks, but the Expedition really is very special to me. If the boat falls apart, or lets me down, I might change my mind, but until that happens.... Magic, I'm sorry that you and Katabatic have yet to find a boat that turns you on.

I give up! It's Fantasy versus Reality, and Fantasy clearly wins.

So how do I get used to a thin kayak? I have a CD Solstice and was thinking of a CD Nomad or what used to be called CD Extreme. I rented it and was uncomfortable in it after near an hour. I guess just practice in it more? More time in my Solstice which I have not had all that long? Adjust paddling style in the boat for more stability? thanks

Dog, there's no hurry to get into a narrower boat. A friend of mine who's been paddling longer than I have, owns 7 kayaks, including a CD Solstice, a CD Extreme, and a CD Stratus. What kayak does he use more than all the others combined? The Solstice. I've found that the pleasure of sea kayaking is enjoying the trip itself: the easy, repetitive stroking, the texture of the water, the wildlife, the scenery, the sounds, the smells, your companions, the excitement of new water. The boat is best that least interferes with/most facilitates feeling good on the water. Enjoy your Solstice to the max!

I love the Solstice as it is easy to cruise and relax in when stationary. Seems good in rough as I have been in. But I am looking forward and want to improve my skills. With that said I have a ton more to learn in my Solstice. Now I just want to get the honey in a Solstice so we can cruise better together. Seems many have more than one kayak so thin may be in my future. Happy with CD workmanship, design, and service. Guess I'll rent the Nomad again before the water turns real cold.

Wipe down any keel with a product called "Rain-X" and any boat will go faster!

According to my experience, Epic 18 is the best choice when it comes to fast kayaks. Once you experienced it, you will able to see dramatic increases in speed and performance.