I'm from Trinidad and Tobago. Lucky for me, we don't have to worry about cold weather or too many predators (like great whites, etc.) and the sea is just beautiful. However, like anywhere else, some huge waves can just roll up onto you from nowhere. Though I've been kayaking close to shore off and on for a couple of years (more off than on), I finally bought my on kayak and have decided that I need to spend more time on the water where I love it and let the rest of life take care of itself for a bit.

Anyway, the question is as I venture further and further away from shore I become more apprehensive about being separated from my kayak. I have taken all the precautions and training, but I was wondering if it was wise to "leash" myself to my kayak, much in the same way surfers do to their surf board. I know there is always the difficulty of entanglement and your kayak taking you where you might not want to go. But I was thinking about a bungee /shock cord get up with carabiners on both ends for quick release. Is this a good idea? If so, should I leash the kayak to my waist or my wrist? Any ideas or sugggestions?

You'll likely get all sorts of answers to your question about leashing yourself to your boat, but it is important to have your boat equipped with perimeter decklines. Whatever misfortune washes you out of your boat, it is important that you've got something to grab onto in a hurry, if conditions threaten to quickly separate you from your kayak.

Thanks for the good advice Strange Magic, and for the quick response. I don't have decklines right around, but will fix that.

To return to your question about leashing, I think you'll find almost all sea kayaking manuals discourage it, whether it be leashing paddler to boat, paddle to boat, or paddle to paddler. The concern is that somehow the paddler will become entangled in the line, either during a rolling attempt, or trying to re-enter the boat. Perimeter decklines should suffice to keep the kayak from getting away, and, if you have a spare paddle that you can reach from your cockpit, you can retrieve your escaped paddle if it's gotten away from you.

I don't always follow this wise advice--when paddling protected waters, and often putting down my paddle to watch for sea birds with binoculars, I'll often use a leash to attach my paddle to the boat. As always, good judgement on the water is the essential ingredient for safe paddling.

i too have had same question, either way it'll be a mistake one day

Reading a lot of Sea Kayak books as a nubie recently. Some do say it is OK to leash up a paddle. Some even say to your person. I do it to my boat in protected waters here much of the time. I would not want it on my body.

Rough water book I was reading last night said when alone lease yourself to the kayak except in surf or rapids.

I was knocked down in a "confused sea" in October. After 3 attempts at rolling back up I had to ditch. Unfortunately, I did not notice the other paddlers were a couple of seconds away and I could have gotten an assist. None the less, when I came up someone was holding my boat and I had my paddle (thanks Tim). I had a heck of a time to swim to my boat and hold my paddle even when someone was keeping the boat from blowing away on its own. This might be a good exercise for everyone. I had on a drysuit for the first time and it messed me up. Floppy and only could swim with my arms. I had to hold the paddle with one of them. I am going to practice this. If I was tethered I would have been able to pull in the boat. I should have ditched the paddle and picked it up after (or since I had help, someone else could have gotten it). This was a real eye opener, even though I was in no danger. I was a Navy rescue swimmer in my youth and can still power along.
This is not an answer to the query, it is just food for thought. I have recently started to ask canoe and kayak friends if them have ever actually been entrapped by rope. I also ask if they have ever tried to cut through rope and cord in the way it would be necessary if trapped, with the knife that they carry.
Nope to both questions.
More food for thought.
Paddle safe!
Steve

Feathercraft makes a tether for kayakers the text of their product info is as follows

"Personal Tether - The personal tether attaches you to your kayak so that you cannot be separated from it in the event of a wet exit. The Feathercraft tether features a small stuff sack which holds approximately 15 feet of webbing. You attach one end of the webbing to your kayak and the other end to either a quick release waist-belt or to your PFD. We especially recommend the tether for . . . sit-on-top kayaks. If you capsize in a strong wind you may not be able to swim fast enough to catch your drifting kayak. Always detach the tether before entering beach surf to avoid entanglement."

In my dinghy sailing days I always tied the end of the mainsheet around my ankle when sailing alone. This was after being thrown out of the boat in a rather violent capsize, only to have the boat still on its side traveling way faster than we could swim. Fortunately someone saw us go over and was able to launch a powerboat and fish us out of the water before we were totally hypothermic. My crew member was basically unconscious and I was unaware we were being rescued till I was on my way out of the water. This is from back in the days before boaters wore wetsuits or had even heard of drysuits. We at least had life jackets on. My foam PFD worked good enough to keep us both afloat since her kapok PFD failed. That was the last kapok PFD any of us used.

I, too, paddle solo in open ocean and share the concern about being separated from the kayak in winds and waves. While I don't use a personal tether now, I have no doubt that the value of a quick-release personal tether is far greater than the risk of entanglement.

If I were to make a personal tether, it would be 1/4" shock cord, attached somewhere near the front of the cockpit, and long enough to allow the swimmer to lift the bow and get onto the stern deck during a rescue; Clipped to the life vest with a marine-grade caribiner.

Right now I use paddle leash made from 1/8" shock cord that attaches the paddle to the kayak. It comes in very handy when fishing, since it makes two hands instantly avaialable to pull in fish.

John

I used to do an awful lot of solo paddling, open coast with long crossings, in purposely sought-after rough water (at times by choice, sometimes not). As a consequence of those actions, one either contemplates a seperation at some point or anticipates mitigation strategies - or indeed, experiences said separation and perhaps may or may not have employed tethering as a routine practice. I've had to swim without my kayak a few times (a world of hurt) and alternately, bailed, fortunately, sans person-to-boat tether. They do work. Done properly. Done as a back-up to all other skill-set developments and not necessarily for the beginner or less gear-savvy intermediate paddler.

I've written for SK Mag on these subjects, with some of my own experiences and article research/interviews indicating both the utility and the dangers of tethering/leashing. These days, for the most part, I just stay in my kayak, relax if inverted unexpectedly, scull for air - then visualize a successful role or re-scull to upright, done with positive energy and then just do it. It actually works.

If you do tether more than a few items, including a boat-to-person tether, be advised that the risk of entanglement with shorter, tether-come-loose items and resultant intertwining is a real possibility, and one that might complicate a difficult situation drastically. Tethered emergency bags, knives, radio leashes - even a paddle leash - just make a personal leash exponentially MORE dangerous - so think through your system and choices and application. Carabineers, multiple rotations, pre-existing water hazards (such as fish trap lines, etc) all add to more potential for entanglement complications that a quick-release buckle or handy knife may not resolve soon enough.

An unencumbered paddler with good skill sets and proven judgment is a far safer one than a paddler with a multiplicity of gear, where that _specific_ gear or gear conflicts could have unintended or unanticipated consequences - especially where that gear was being used to bridge rusty or un-honed proficiencies.

Let me know if there are any particular questions about boat-to-person/ personal leash options, material/design choices, etc. I may or may not have the answer or experience.

Doug Lloyd

So what could I use for tethering a knife or VHF to my PDF? Something that would break easy if I had to?

As others have said the only concern I would have of any kind of tether is entanglement and entrapment due to to short of a leash. And having some sort of quick release system to get out of it.

Sudden capsize is well, sudden. Often you don't have a lot of time to take a real good deep breath before you roll over so time is of the essence. If I can't roll out of right away then a wet exit follows. My point is, this doesn't leave a lot of air to be fiddling tethers and stuff that may potentially entrap me.

I use 1/8" bungee cord for most things I want to tether these days, as long as the item stows well; 1/2" webbing for personal tethering, similar to what Chris Duff uses, not used often; coiled leash for my paddle, use all the time for convenience.

thanks!

The sea is very powerful. When swimming after a capsize, the sea can rip a semi-flooded kayak from your grip with relative ease. I've seen that enough in surf.

While I agree with Doug's concern about possible entanglement with a personal tether, we need to acknowledge that good advice is very situation-dependent.

Some of us kayak in open water where separation from a kayak could mean hours or days in the water, or death. Possible entangement with a teather? I'm very okay with that unless it's around my neck.

The remote possibility of life-thretening tether entanglement is a small price to pay for eliminating the dire consequences of being separated from a kayak in open water with unfavorable winds or currents.

I admit I don't normally use a tether. This forum thread is convincing me that when solo I should.

John
Rakiraki, Ra, Fiji

What points would you tether from the kayak to body ? Thanks!

By all means leash yourself to your kayak: just be aware of why you feel the need to do it. I hate to see entry-level paddlers concocting personal leashes as an alternative to paddling with companions or risking rough-water outings without other skills and equipment being in good order - such as practicing wet exits in controlled, jobbly/windy conditions while retaining contact with your kayak and paddle (and reboarding to the point of an empty bilge and skirt re-attachment for a typical sea kayak); or having perimeter deck lines, ideally.

Correspondingly, intermediate paddlers often have a habit of aquiring a large amount of safety gear not neccessarily commensurate with other developing skills, adding tethered bail-out bags, tethering a bunch of other stuff, and adding possibly ill-concieved (in design) personal leashes. Is there a risk of entanglement? Well, yes. Is it worth the risk. Possibly. Is this assement correct? Possibly not. What IS the correct answer? It will always be an individual answer as many have stated.

My concern with entanglement derived from both personal experience and the absolute frustration of decreasing dexterity issues in cold water and the feeling of hopelessness that compounds those frustrations as you try to de-tangle gear. The point was, make sure the things you have tethered are initially suitably stowed and relatively secure in a tumble; the tethering, with the tethering lanyard, should be stowed with the item and/or coiled in a secured fashion.

The perponderance of risk isn't with the notion of tethering and leashes, but how it is achieved (and when/by whom perhaps being the more subjective matter).

Not being seperated from one's kayak at sea, especially far-offshore, for long crossings, or where there is signifigant risk with off-shore wind should you bail, are times when I've certainly employed a personal leash. A kayak can be blown from your grip in a heart beat. At least if you still have your kayak at the end of a leash, you still have your kayak. A solo paddler especially has to do somthing to even the odds. I don't recall saying otherwise. Just make sure your leash is a backup and not an excuse to venture further than perhaps is advisable (choose your adjective). If that's repetative, good.

For attachment points, bow-to-belt is good (takes care of coiling extra line issues), using your belted tow-line by attaching to your bow-painter line can work, or even a dedicated line or webbing-length coiled in a tight pouch that attaches to a quick-release belt and a deck-line or cleat that is accessible can work.

There's enough experts out there recommending against personal leashes as there are those remaining relatively neutral with recommendations for others thinking of leashing done so with logical caveats as discussed (and usually with a personal bias revealed either way in terms of what they do personally).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

It's compulsory in most sea kayak clubs in australia to have a paddle leash ,so if you have to carry out a rescue or any other reason let go of your paddle ,it stays with you .All so if you do come out of your boat it will act as a sea anchor to slow your boats departure from where you are.I don't recommend those coiled ones as they will drive you insane hitting on your deck every paddle stroke, just some 4mm shockcord will do the trick.Just remember to disconnect it when doing a beach landing as you approch the beach so you can throw your paddle up the beach while you get out or you could end up with a broken paddle.

I love the paddle leash idea as it serves so many purposes; it also acts as a boat-to-person leash if you bail out (AND STILL HOLD ONTO YOUR PADDLE). The coiled leashes do tend to slap the deck (annoying).

As always, try to have deck lines, learn to brace and roll, outfit loose cockpits with a more secure fit, learn good bail-out form if you do blow your roll, then add these leash arrangements for convenience and backup. No, not necessarily in that order, but do order your thinking in a priority of first-things-first importance. Safe paddling!!

Some one need to make a leash with a quick disconnect that you can use easily with gloves. Something along the lines of how a dog collar clips in with the plastic snaps. Something with a certain break strength you could just pull apart in a emergency.

I started surfing as a kid. I am 49 now. We surfers started using leashes attached to our surfboards starting in the 70's and haven't looked back. Surfers use leashes with no problems surfing big waves getting tumbled around underwater. I think kayakers are exaggerating the fear of becoming entangled and being strangled by a leash. If you have anything other than yourself leashed to your kayak like a paddle than some tangling may occur. Once you are in the water I doubt any tangling(with a leashed Paddle) if it even occurs will prevent anyone from getting back in their kayak. You should carry a knife on your PFD. I have been using a paddle leash and a leash attached to me. No issues. I'd rather not lose my boat in frigid icy waters. When conditions deteriorate(wind comes up) I immediately attach the leashes and initiate other safety procedures and gear.
I recommend a surfboard leash 10 foot. $25.

I use a paddle leash in high wind conditions, it's the coiled variety and it's attached to my wrist, but that's about it, including open coast paddling.

Regarding coastal paddling in the surf zone and tethered boats, it sounds like a good way to get thrashed by your own boat. In most cases you'll be better served making the practice of holding onto your equipment reflexive with copious amounts of practice, including in rough conditions.

You say that perhaps us kayakers are overly concerned with the risks of entanglement, but we have the paddle and boat to hang onto and any extraneous equipment that one may have lashed to the fore or aft decks. If you get that tether wrapped around something it could complicate your ability to recover from the capsize leading to prolonged exposure to frigid water (46f last weekend).

Are there conditions and situations that I'd consider it? Perhaps; but as a general practice I don't recommend it or teach it.

If you get separated from your boat in open water you are going to be spending a lot more time in frigid waters. It's Always best to stay with your boat. Anything that facilitates that such as a leash is a safety benefit. A leash is also easily quickly removed by simply pulling the velcro tab should there be some tangling but as I mentioned that is highly unlikely to happen in any way that impedes reentry into the kayak. I highly recommend using one in open water on the ocean or lakes particularly in cold water situations where separation from ones boat and immersion in cold water would result in hypothermia in a short period of time.

I solo kayak/flyfish the CA Sierra's half frozen lakes into December till they ice over(been doing this for close to 30 years),,,water temps are near freezing a few degrees above feeezing,,,, separation from ones boat is likely not survivable. I paddle Pyramid lake, NV throughout the winter after other lakes freeze over. Pyramid does not freeze, it is a large body of water with consistent winter water temps around 42 degrees from december through march, air temps can be below zero at night to 40 or 50 degrees on warm days during the day. Winds can come up unexpectedly and go from 0 to 50+ in seconds blowing offshore with gusts often exceeding 50+ mph. Swimming 4-8 miles(depends on the angle of the wind and where you will wash up) across this lake in the dark does not give me a pleasant warm fuzzy feeling. A shockcord/leash is a must have piece of safety gear.

If you paddle cold waters or open waters I highly recommend purchasing a Surfboard shockcord in a 10 or 12 length attached to either the bow or stern of a kayak. It's a great piece of inexpensive safety gear you don't want to be without.

As an ACA L4 instructor and professional instructor I am going to disagree with the unequivocal nature of your statement. Your best bet to avoid separation from your boat is to not get out of it.

A must have piece of equipment is a bilge pump. A paddle is must have piece of equipment. a tether to your boat is not and for most I don't recommend it and will discourage it actively on trips that i run - not that I've ever had to, no one has ever tried it due to proper training regarding wet exits and holding onto your equipment.

This technique could be incredibly dangerous in a tide race, WW, or other dynamic environment where the turbulent nature of the water would likely wrap the line around you before you know it.

I also don't believe that experience equals expertise. Proper training and perfect practice equal expertise. Your 30 years kayak fishing in lakes does not equal expertise in the dynamic coastal environment.

LOL nice slight there questioning my "expertise"....But I'll just jab right back.
I grew up IN/ON the ocean as a kid. My 40+ years of surfing and paddling experience, time on and in the water on both coasts has built my experience and knowledge of the open ocean and coastal environment. I started surfing as a 7 year old and having grown up right on the beach spending my days in the water, raft riding, surfing, paddling, sailing, diving etc. Surfing(with a leash) up and down both Atlantic and pacific coasts, Hawaii and around the planet in several oceans. Ocean kayak fishing off baja,CA,Hawaii,East Coast/Stripers/Bluefish and kayak diving all over the planet. So 4+ decades of open ocean paddling surf boards and kayaks in extremely large swells. All That would be in addition to 30 or so years of paddling lakes for the purpose of flyfishing, where I am once again at for the moment. SO I am a very accomplished waterman in a variety of areas.


Since you're a kayaking newb with less understanding and experience in the ocean I'll share my experience and expertise and try and help educate you a bit here and help you to be a better kayaker especially as far as open ocean and understanding of the ocean.
First off, Like I said, Your false idea of somehow becoming entangled in a shockcord/leash is way way over exaggerated. People do have all sorts of ridiculous irrational fears and phobia's based on what ever ideas they get in their head and not on fact or reality. A leash is not some sea monster that's going to entangle you and drag you to your death. If you can't get past that then you are just going to be stuck down where you are. ONE MO TIME ...Surfers ride the largest of waves(Mavericks, Waimea, Todos Santos, etc) far larger than any kayaker will ever encounter and they have been doing so for decades using leashes with no issues. The leash IS NOT GETTING WRAPPED/ENTANGLED around them as you suggest will happen. It just doesn't happen. That is a false premise and a fallacy of those that just don't have much experience in the surf. I have never ever been entangled by a leash. A surf board differs from a kayak and a kayak may very likely have snag points that a surfboard doesn't have. A kayak(Sea/Dive/Fish) may have various deck rigging,dry bags, cleats, dive tank, cooler, milk crate, fish finder etc Regardless of even all that there is Still no issue with entanglement. A Sea Kayak won't have the same sort of numerous snag points like a Sit on Top for fisherman or a kayak for diving(tank/gear). I have done countless wetexits from my different kayaks and never had a problem where I couldn't get back in/on the kayak because of a leash. If you're off shore kayak fishing or paddling a sea kayak far from an easy swim Use a leash.
""""Your best bet to avoid separation from your boat is to not get out of it."""" <<<Did I say anywhere that it wasn't? But that brings up....>>>
Second, it is not always possible to remain in the boat in rough seas. If you have ocean experience you would be well aware of this. A wet exit WILL happen at some point to any paddler No matter how good you think your roll is and how good your LOL>>"expertise" is. A swell can have you upside down and out of your boat and YOU can be separated from your boat and that leash will be your last lifeline to safety. It's just more insurance of survival. You can be tossed upside down by a white cap and your spray skirt pops off and your cockpit is flooded and the wind is blowing 20+ and there are 5+ foot whitecaps breaking on your head. That slick surfaced kayak slips out of your hands while you are miles off shore you aren't swimming back. You are going where the winds and tides take you. When that boat is drifting/blowing away that shockcord/leash will be your lifeline to safety and save your life. Your arms aren't going to remain in their sockets Trying to hold onto that boat when the whitecaps/swells/waves become large, the force of the water/wave is way more than ANYONE can overcome trying to hold onto the cockpit or a bow or stern handhold. You will have a broken arm or separated injured shoulder and then you are in even an even worse situation. If waves/white caps aren't severe you hold on as best you can.

Third, holding onto a boat is not going to happen when You get hit with a 4-5-6+ foot white cap or wave you are not holding onto a kayak. Flat out plain and simple I'll put your idea to rest right there. No matter how strong you think you are that kayak will be ripped right out of your hands and then washed away. Trying to hold onto a boat(or surf board) will get you pummeled and injured real quick as that boat is ripped out of your hands and then smashed back into you. It is better to be momentarily separated from the boat and then when the next lull in waves/swells/white caps stops bashing you you can attempt reentry into the boat. So when that boat ends up 10-20 feet away from you with the winds gusting a solid 20-30+ with higher gusts. It is doubtful you will be able to swim after it. You'll be watching that boat of yours float and blown away while you are miles from land. That's not a situation you want to find yourself in. No matter how good you think your roll is, or how strong you are and capable of holding on YOU can be separated from your boat and that leash will be your last lifeline to safety. It's just more insurance of survival. Hell, You may not even be able to get back in that boat and be able to stay in it if the white caps/winds/swells come up. You may be hanging on that boat for dear life getting washed off it every few minutes or so. here again the value of a leash is invaluable. If you think any of the above with regards to what a tiny little kayak will be like in the ocean then you just don't have much understanding of the ocean.
If you read AND actually comprehend what I wrote you would have realized that I am advocating using a leash in open water situations, Not whitewater in a river or while surfing a kayak. AND nowhere did I say That would be in lieu of other safety techniques. When I teach open ocean kayak classes to beginners through advanced I show the advantages of staying with ones boat at all costs. And that includes using a valuable piece of safety gear a shockcord/leash.
LOL Bottomline, A leash won't turn into a Sea Monster and entangle you. Many ocean open water kayakers use them with no issues,,, as do surfers.

I didn't make this personal, that was all you.

You cited 30 years of kayaking on lakes, that was the experience I questioned. There was no mention of ocean experience at all. Even if there was I don't care. I don't generally tether myself to my boat. I don't and will not teach it as general practice no matter how vociferous you become.

While I may not be as special as you, I am hardly a newbie. As I said I am an instructor in the coastal environment, last I checked that is the open ocean. I do paddle in the open ocean, surf in the open ocean and teach in the open ocean. Additionally, I routinely paddle in 20kn+ winds and do rescue practice with others in that environment. I have held onto my boat in crashing waves larger than 5'. While I believe we are all between swims, I don't believe we are all going to lose out boat in a bit of breeze and wave action.

You want to dig at my experience/expertise, fine. I will tell you that your rant does not impress me and I care little for what you have to say when you're clearly foaming at the mouth. Your post mentioned lakes only and you also made an uncategorical statement about leashes. You do what you want, I don't really care, but your decades of experience leave you feeling awfully defensive in the face of one person picking apart one post.

LOL, You're clearly Upset and angry now....Hilarious.

No, that was you making this personal questioning My paddling "Expertise" since I mentioned a situation (large lake/winter conditions) where I currently paddle and why a leash is a very good idea in various open water situations. But I find all that amusing while You are now pouting.

You also haven't picked apart my post and reasons why many paddlers use a leash in certain situations particularly off shore open water. As all you have been able to do aside from upsetting yourself is to try and twist(that may be due to poor Reading and Comprehension Skills) what I am saying, trying to say that I am "Uncategorically" advocating the use of a leash in any and all circumstances like white water or surf zone etc. Which of course I never said.

Guy< TRY and READ and Comprehend and/or stop twisting what I post, it reeks of desperation,"""I don't believe we are all going to lose out boat in a bit of breeze and wave action""" Here again I did not say folks will lose their boat in a bit of a breeze and wave action. I stated clearly that conditions can unexpectedly arise where no matter how strong you are you are not holding onto a kayak. Comprende?????
You obviously Just don't comprehend the force of water and wave action and are to stubborn to listen. That is OK. But I hope you (ACA L4 instructor and professional instructor)don't endanger beginning kayakers by misleading them that they can and should try holding onto a kayak in 5+ foot surf. Anything more that a few feet of wave and You're going to get some man or woman, boy or girl severely injured with a broken arm or dislocated shoulder or worse.


If you can't have an adult conversation with opinions that may differ from yours without upsetting yourself and teetering on going batshit crazy then I suggest you refrain from posting on internet message boards.


....also BS to you holding onto a kayak in 5 foot waves/surf...

Here's some leashes that can work great for anyone that is looking for one. Go 10 or 12+ foot.

leash

....marky don't click the amazon link ......it'll just give you scary nightmares and bad dreams of leash sea monsters

Curious where does a leash go on a surf board?

When you leash yourself to a kayak where do you put it on you body?

Leash on the surf board goes to the skeg or a small cup with a pin across that is glass into the board around the skeg. Shockcord leash attaches to your ankle.

For the kayak,,,,I leash my paddle to the side of the boat with a short 3 foot coil leash on the port side.
I leash the boat to my wrist with a velcro wrap that has a pull tab. The shockcord goes to the rear of the kayak down the starboard side. I coil wrap and tuck it under deck rigging, a small bag could work also but I have never found the need. So there is no extra length of cord flopping around. When I end up in the water if I can't hold onto the boat the shockcord simply pulls away. I pull the boat to me or swim a short distance just like I do when surfing. I do this on a sit inside sea kayak and sit on top fishing kayaks. I keep my decks clean and free of any obstructions/snags as much as possible. That is not always feasible on a sit on top for offshore fishing. It is however more easily accomplished on a sea kayak.


Just another point in this discussion which I forgot to initially bring up. Different from a kayak tether which you end up in the water but sort of relevant.... Sailing.....you use a safety harness and short lifeline that attaches yourself to the sailboat. Rough seas come up you clip on. This is often done whether you are sailing solo or crewing a boat. When crewing in rough seas and you go up on the foredeck to deal with a jib/sail for instance or to perform what ever function....You clip into a safety harness/lifeline. A gust comes up and swings that boom around and knocks you over the side or you slip off a wet deck...you are attached to the sailboat with a short safety line and harness and prevented from ending up in the water. A sailboat can end up upside down rolling several times. There are all sorts of lines/rigging/running rigging, winches, cleats, the mast and the boom etc. YOU STILL USE a lifeline to attach yourself to the sailboat. Food for thought..........

Thanks! I use a paddle leash similar to the other leashes you posted. So far am cruising the bays and marsh lands. I think I would have no problem with a leash to the boat.

Mark says:"....your rant does not impress me and I care little for what you have to say when you're clearly foaming at the mouth."

FlyFisher replies:"If you can't have an adult conversation with opinions that may differ from yours without upsetting yourself and teetering on going batshit crazy then I suggest you refrain from posting on internet message boards."

We try to do better than this level of dialogue on this Message Board, and almost always succeed. Let's again commit ourselves to civil discussion.

If you want to see trash talk I belong to the Corvetteforum.com political section. People there cannot disagree and debate with out really calling this and that it is really bad there. This place is usually much calmer.

Carl,
Thank you for stepping in and cooling things off. As you said this is not the type of "discussion" we are are used to seeing on this forum. In fact this is the first time we've seen it in the five years the forum has been open.

I would ask that we all abide by the forum rules - which do allow for disagreement and dislikes. By the rules of this forum a few of the preceding posts should be removed. I would ask instead that both parties consider editing their posts to include only the constructive discussion we all can learn from and have all come to enjoy.

You both make some good points relative to your point of view and it would be a shame to loose that discussion.

Mikekayak

Thanks
Michael